Dear balancers.

[BlindGuy]

Well Thomek you seem to ignore the fact that you nerf yourself. Anyway, if you really wanted to make infantry stronger, you need to implement some changes. But not to ranged or cav. To infantry: Split WPF is bullshit atm, your damage and speed is insanely better when you take all WPF in a single weapon type. But Hoplite is not very fun for many ppl, and hoplite is ideal infantry: rapes horses and has a shield. Give more infantry access to polearms and shields and they would crush ranged and cav.

But mostly change people's BRAINS. Currently teamwork consists of gank. That's it. It's a ME, IM THE IMPORTANT THING mentality that you have to remove. So, remove the scoreboard, in it's entirety. Just have a list of players. Remove the need for ppl to stack their KDR, and they will give more to team effort. Or have some proper assist system, so you can be proud that all you did was act as a running arrowscreen for your 2hander to get amonsgt the ranged and rape them, or you stood and blocked 2 guys for 2 minutes while your team arrived. But those things cannot be implemented, and the balance is half the issue: Either have ROCKSOLID bannerbalance or NONE, or I don't know, but currently 1: teamhitting/killing is not punished NEARLY enough, not even close. And team spirit is non existant. When you see a teammate getting overwhelmed, currently it pays off to just think "Oh well, fuck him" and run off. And saves dont pay off either: teammate horse slain, he falls at enemies feet, I often (and I see others too) leap over his body and shield him if I have one, or try and block the incoming hits: that should be rewarded too.

So much could be taken from Battlefield aswell: When I see a ninja about to overhead sleepy archer and I throw an axe 20 metres and headshot that ninja, I should get a fucking reward.

Also awareness: Cav or ninjas or something coming behind my teammate, I wheel about and prepare to receive them, teammate just stares at me like "Why you pointing a sword at me bro?" instead of making the fucking logical thought train: Oh, this guy is pointing at something behind me. Just last night I saved a guy just like this, stab past his head and kill 1h-cav horse just before he gets teammate: teammate starts attacking me with sword cause he thinks I tried to stab him and missed, fucking clueless that enemy is rolling on ground behind him.

You cannot make people more aware, you cannot stop newer player from stacking strength and making themselves arrow and lance magnets, and you cannot realistically make most infantry take shields and poles to make them a stronger unit but weaker individuals: ppl dont want that. I mean, it works well to have entire fighting group be shielders with poles and 1handers, on balanced builds, maybe 18/21. Your team will win very often, but since its hard work to make ppl get rid of their super op 2h hero or polespammer extreme, it aint gonna happen.

[Grumbs]

There is not enough incentive to play pure melee when you can play a ranged character with good melee and decent armour, especially at high level. Thats one of the main issues - make melee a real class in and of itself, rather than half a ranged or cav class like it is now.

I would suggest simply buffing pure melee. Make it an actual class with the presence of a cav or a ranged player, rather than a class that has to gank en mass to compare to the other classes. Make armour better or reduce the armour penetration of ranged. Increase the weight of 2 slot melee weapons for weapon stun. Nerf heavy gloves but add a bit more armour to heavy armours. Nerf 0 slot weapons etc

[GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER]

Honestly I'm the best 1h cav in NA and I legit find it easier to just play infantry.

Polearm is the easiest, most rewarding class in the game. All this stuff you guys are crying about saying cavalry and ranged is nonsense.

[MURDERTRON]

Honestly I'm the best 1h cav in NA and I legit find it easier to just play infantry.

Polearm is the easiest, most rewarding class in the game. All this stuff you guys are crying about saying cavalry and ranged is nonsense.

Pretty much.  I've never really played range, but my pole arm character with 17k worth of gear has a much better KDR than my 2h cav in heavy armor back in its heyday, pre-horse nerf, bump nerf and bump slash nerf

I do have a feeling that ranged, with the exception of throwing, hasn't been properly balanced since the WPF patch, considering that they've gained considerable melee capabilities through the 1h stab rework, 0 slot weapons becoming useful and the buffs to the mace and military sickle.

[BlindGuy]

... NA... is nonsense.

Sorry, the adults are speaking. We will discuss happy meals and tonka trucks later ok honey?

Jokes aside, I really am sorry: You have no idea. In EU with 30 ping I'm average scorer, can take most ppl 1v1 because of my 10k hours rather than my pure skill, but in NA I'm score-topping with 120 ping... what gives? Is it luck? No, I truly am convinced you guys are way behind, skill wise. Not that you don't have very very good players, but the average is way lower than on EU1.

[Macropus]

Thomek rages at ranged and cav, Joker advertises the conquest mode, Grumbs talks about ranged-melee hybrids being too strong.
A classic balance discussion, I feel like I'm at home. 

[San]

8WM, level 35:
Pre-wpf patch: 168 wpf archery, 75 wpf melee
Post-wpf patch: 170 wpf archery, 76 wpf melee

Am I missing something here with the complaints from archery mixed with melee? If you're having trouble with ranged with 80-100 less wpf than you, I don't know how much more you can be assisted without having the kill handed to you for free. Military Sickle hasn't been changed for years afaik and Mace used to be 99 speed, 30b for the longest time, and it's been in the realm of 31b and 100 speed at some points. It was nerfed because knockdown was untechable, inflating the reward for a single hit, and now that nerf is unneeded.

The average for both NA and EU are low, just how it is. Maybe balance should be focused on low level play.

[GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER]

all that stuff

You think I can't come into EU1 and top the scoreboard? And I'm not even that great by NA standards.

[Algarn]

Anyone can play with 120 ping and top scoreboards if he plays in a smart way (staying with teammates, using good armor to compensate your ping). I remember I tried playing on NA servers when it was a cav invasion on EU1, and I was actually doing better on NA than EU, since there was less plates, less cavs, and less archers with nomad bows. Good times back then... don't manage anymore to deal with ping.

[BlindGuy]

You think I can't come into EU1 and top the scoreboard? And I'm not even that great by NA standards.

Unlss you come in at 4AM when I've chased the last EU's away, before the Russian shift starts, and your the only person on there.

But with players on... No I don't think you can

[Utrakil]

Honestly I'm the best 1h cav in NA.

I'm not even that great by NA standards.

??

[GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER]

I've made an expedition to the strange realm known as EU_1. Here I shall use my training at the cRPG University to record an ethnography of the local culture.

I have just entered the server and spawned in my standard gear for the NA server as infantry. There are 12 players on each team. I was a late spawner. The first player I have encountered fits the following description:

* Full Milanese Plate from head to toe (possibly heirloomed).
* +3 Cataphract Horse
* Jousting Lance

He spots and charges me. I jumped to the side and slashed him in the face (it did no damage at presumably near maximum speed bonus). I am then quickly found by two of his infantry teammates. He bumps me down as they get on both sides of me. I die.

If I had to make an educated guess I would predict that 80% of the server's melee players have over 55 body armor on.

To be continued shortly...

EDIT:

??

I meant at infantry I'm not that great.

[Thomek]

I don't think it's me with my Ninja build I have always prevailed somehow. I like to play against stacked odds. Nothing new under the sun from my side.

Just look at EU battle player numbers. Something aint' right. It shouldn't die so fast. I think it is because infantry started to flee, then it became more and more unbearable for the rest of the infantry.

Fact is EU1 is migrating to EU2, and I fear this is the last step before cRPG dying. At least for me, siege can be fun, but has it's limits, and I quickly tire of it compared to battle, which never seems to loose its grip.

I just... Don't think it's viable to blame people's brains, stupid play etc..  OR dream about new maps, new game-modes, when there are no signs that will actually happen.

What needs to be done is simply a realization among balancers that:

* Try to get a feel for how easy it is to actually play infantry in a Range/Cav scenario
* Realize that cav/range have to pay an extra performance cost, to make room for "the food".
* That every class should have ability to have equal fun, is a flawed argument. Ranged and cav should have less fun than infantry. That's the price they have to pay for food to prey on.

I seriously believe players will come back and respec to infantry, if the game was more shifted in favor of it, and we will once again see player numbers increase.

To NA:

(click to show/hide)

Without having played much NA, I feel the mood, playstyles and the whole metagame is different on your side, and that it hasn't hardened as much as EU. Something that is just natural considering you've had less players overall through the mods existence. Besides US vs various EU player mentalities are very different. I don't believe you have the amount of ranged we have, the amount of cav, and the average skill/loom level of them. I find NA in general much more melee and fun-centric. If it weren't for your awful chat, I would probably play more with you!

[GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER]

Chapter 2: DRZ Vs. LE

I am now beginning a battle between the ruskies and my brothers the Deutsch and parading myself as The Gay American. I shall use this an experience to judge EU mentalities. I will report my results when I return.

EDIT: It was an awful experience.

[MURDERTRON]

8WM, level 35:
Pre-wpf patch: 168 wpf archery, 75 wpf melee
Post-wpf patch: 170 wpf archery, 76 wpf melee

Am I missing something here with the complaints from archery mixed with melee? If you're having trouble with ranged with 80-100 less wpf than you, I don't know how much more you can be assisted without having the kill handed to you for free. Military Sickle hasn't been changed for years afaik and Mace used to be 99 speed, 30b for the longest time, and it's been in the realm of 31b and 100 speed at some points. It was nerfed because knockdown was untechable, inflating the reward for a single hit, and now that nerf is unneeded.

The average for both NA and EU are low, just how it is. Maybe balance should be focused on low level play.

Mil sickle got a +2 buff on swings in 2h mode.  Langes was already 90% as good as a Longsword.