Author Topic: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav  (Read 1315 times)

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Offline Mallets

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Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« on: September 12, 2014, 06:19:12 pm »
+1
Ok folks... I've been wanting to interject my thoughts on this for sometime.  If you know my post... they can be lengthy... and I can be wordy.  So I've reserved making such a post.  But here it goes nonetheless.

First off... I'm quite opposed to taking HA out of the game.  What next... Cav all-together.  Then Ranged all-together.  CRPG needs as much diversity as it can get.  Of course balance is always needed to keep the game competitive and fun.


With that... let me propose a few ways to balance these class and their current style of game play.  Please view my 2nd suggestion.  For me, it's more vital solution to this unbalance.


First solution (minor/basic solution), some of the physics for horses could be reduced.  I personally don't see any issues with top speed or hitpoints.  But horse acceleration, maneuverability, and ability to bump at such low speeds... I see these all as great unbalances.  More so with maneuverability and the ability to bump at low speeds.  Maybe horses could get hung up on people unless the horse reaches a higher speed than what's currently set.  Maybe there's a way to make bumping folks greatly reduce the horses speed.  After bumping 2 or 3 players... maybe the horse would be so slow, it would get hung up on the next person in line.  Being able to knockdown so many folks in a row has to be a great unbalance.  And being able to maneuver so easily doing so is kind of crazy.

With that said, I know the question still stands... well, 1-on-1 with a HA, what's to prevent him from bumping me, shooting while I'm on the ground, then circling around, getting close with bow drawn and repeating.


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Mallets Proposed Solution

Well here's my second suggestion... and the actual solution I want to present.

If possible, I think the physics of the game should be set wherein a HA (or HX) cannot turn his horse at all when drawing/aiming with his bow.  Think about it.  It takes two hands to draw a bow (and two hands to aim an xbow).  With both hands occupied, the player cannot possible hold the reins.  Even if he could hold the reins some how while drawing or aiming... there's no way he can precisely control his horse while trying to accurately aim his bow or xbow.

My suggestion is... as soon as the player hits left-click to draw/aim... he loses all ability to turn the horse left or right.  Could even set it where he loses the ability to control the speed of the horse.  Of course, a horse acceleration is likely controlled by spurring the horse.  But slowing down is usually done by pulling back on the reins.  Either way, you can't accurately aim while doing either one.

Reasoning behind this suggestion... how & why it will help?!  Well, for one... I think it would go a long way to keeping HA from doing their bumping-shooting you on the ground routine.  The HA's lack of maneuverability while bow is drawn should allow opponent to dance away from their horse.  Not that an HA can't ever bump shot someone.  All but brand new players should be able to side step a horse that has to go in a straight line.

This will allow for very skilled HAs to still play decently.  If you are an elite HA, I personally think you should be at the top of the leader board... just the same as an elite 1-Hander or Polearmer or any class.  But an HA's high score should come from his ability to accurately aim his bow and his use of mobility to quickly move around the battlefield.  But this tweak would hopefully eliminate their ability to dominate any player with any class in a 1-on-1 situation.  Currently, there's nothing to combat the bump-ground-shooting technique... no matter what class.  And that's quite unfair.

I think this, along with the reduction in a horse's ability to bump and the reduction in the damage from bumps (my first suggestion)... I think all of this together, could greatly reduce the OP nature of HA.


Maybe a sore topic for some... but this could even be applied all Cavalry classes.  Could be applied to Lancers and 2H & 1H Cav.  Of course you could argue that someone mounted on a horse could hold reins in one hand and their lance or sword in the other... thus able to control the horse.  To a degree, I think yes.  But I think that control should be extremely limited.  In cRPG, our melee Cav users are like ballerinas on the battlefield.  They can easily & gracefully dance around the battlefield and strike opponents with pinpoint precision.

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I hope all this makes sense.  And I'm not even sure it's possible to program such into cRPG.  I'll admittedly say that I have no clue to what is required to program such.  But if it's possible, I think this could greatly even the odds against HA... especially in a 1v1 situation.

Just my humble solution... which is absolutely 100% correct and the best idea ever!!!

THE END
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 01:23:18 am by Kalam »

Offline ROHYPNOL

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2014, 07:30:58 pm »
+7
This game is meant for team play. Your melee build should not be able to kill everything just as archers should not be able to melee as well as a full melee build. Game is called Mount & Blade, deal with it.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2014, 08:27:03 pm »
+3
Your first suggestion has already been done.  Most light horses (i.e. unarmored horses) get stopped if they try to run over two people in a row.  Or if they are on an incline and try to run someone over.  Horses are big, a horse moving at 2 mph is still going to move your ass aside and most likely knock you to the ground if you're in it's way.

2nd suggestion is too drastic.  I'm in favor of a maneuverability nerf to horses if you've got a crossbow or bow drawn (but not sure if that is possible) but a complete inability to turn while drawing/aiming from horse is too drastic. 

If my suggestion for #2 is not possible, then I don't think anything should be done.  The great part about Warband and c-rpg is that there is diversity and many classes requiring you to use different play styles and teamwork to overcome certain obstacles.  Melee shouldn't be able to deal with horse archers (if the horse archer stays away from them).  Get some throwing, bring a crossbow, or protect your own ranged classes so they can deal with the horse archers. 
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Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2014, 08:51:28 pm »
+8
Make it so horses have to travel on a pre-set track that is predetermined when the map is made.  Is there a stupid newbie peasant two feet off the track?  Too fucking bad.  The good news is, horses are now trains.  Deal with it.
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Offline Mallets

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2014, 09:00:05 pm »
0
This game is meant for team play. Your melee build should not be able to kill everything just as archers should not be able to melee as well as a full melee build. Game is called Mount & Blade, deal with it.

Precisely!  That's why I'm totally against taking HA out of the game.  I'm also totally against  nerfing archer accuracy to the point that no one can play ranged.

What I do have an issue with... is the fact that HA can use their hold aim - get close - bump - shoot opponent on ground - circle around - and repeat.  They can do this over and over with no counter what so ever.  You try to strike at them, they shoot you before closing down to you.  You hold block with your shield, they bump you... possibly shooting you on the ground.  While I love having HA in the game, I see this as a major unbalance.

Folks have been throwing out ideas about how to better balance Cav... and HA in particular.  This was just a suggestion.  Not saying remove either class like some.  So "Mount" would still very much remain in Mount & Blade.  So I don't see your point.  Call it a nerf or what have you... which I hate that term.  Just cause you make a class or weapon weaker, doesn't make it a nerf.  To me... a nerf makes the class or weapon/armor not viable for play at all.  If this suggestion was implemented, would it be harder to play HA (and Cav if done so for Cav as well).  Yes... most definitely.  But doesn't mean the class is unplayable.  Not at all.  Cav would still likely be at the top most games.  Just not by such large, unbalanced margins.


However, I apologize... it seems I've hit a sore spot.  I'm pretty sure if I never mentioned Lancers in my OP and just left it to HA... you'd never chimed in.  But as soon as I mention the build you play the most... you have an issue (going as far as saying that'd my suggestion is to remove Cav build all-together).  It's sad to see folks cling to their builds... and put their enjoyment of dominating with a particular build over the better of the game and it's community (finding a balance in gameplay).

Now by no means am I the eternal judge on what determines balance.  Again... this was simply my humble suggestion.  And for the record... I really enjoy my Lancer & HA characters.  I also enjoy my thrower, x-bower, and shielder builds.  I enjoy them all.  Hence why in all my years of playing, I've only retired once.  To busying playing each build a little here and there.  And for the record... by far, I have the best K/D ratio on my Lancer.  So essentially, I'm saying we should weaken my best build.  But I put the game itself and the community before my own interest.  If this was implemented... I'd still play Lancer.  Would I do as good... probably not.  But the more skilled Lancers would continue to succeed (though maybe not as much).  Rohypnol... you are one of those very skilled Lancers.  So you'd still go 9-3... just not 15-1 every map.  Which is still a hugely respectable score.  Cav and HA should still be able to have plenty of fun!

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2014, 09:06:37 pm »
+2
That's pretty insulting considering that Roh goes 9-3 with the heavy lance.  On the ground.  With no athletics.
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Offline Mallets

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2014, 09:08:39 pm »
0
Make it so horses have to travel on a pre-set track that is predetermined when the map is made.  Is there a stupid newbie peasant two feet off the track?  Too fucking bad.  The good news is, horses are now trains.  Deal with it.

Lol!  Pretty good one!

Really surprised to see such drastic opposition to this suggestion.  There's so many folks calling for HA and Ranged to be super-nerfed or even taken out of the game.  While my suggestion could certainly be seen as (drastic, I can definitely see that)... I'm not sure any stat changes to horses will solve the unbalance everyone is crying about.  I think the physics/mechanics of the game will have to change to bring such about.


For the record... I'm not one of those that cry about Ranged or HA.  I personally think there's a bit of unbalance with HA (and even Cav a little... why else would I do excellent with my Lancer, but super suck with every other build).  But I've never thought there were unbalance issues with Ranged.

Again, if no changes happen... I'm just as content.  If a change needs to happen to HA (or even Cav)... I think the change has to take place with the mechanics & physics of fighting from horseback... not from stat changes.



If you disagree like Crazy Cracka... I can totally respect that... and tend to agree with him about it likely being too drastic.  But if you disagree just to hold onto your elite Cav or HA build... that's really disappointing to see.

Offline Mallets

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2014, 09:11:15 pm »
+1
That's pretty insulting considering that Roh goes 9-3 with the heavy lance.  On the ground.  With no athletics.


Hahahah!  My point exactly.  Roh is a great player... and would still be with such mechanics implement.


And again, guys, this isn't meant to be "this is the perfect solution".  It was a suggestion... meant to open a discuss about the possibility of changing come Cav-fighting mechanics.  Maybe not as drastic as I'm suggestion.  Maybe more along the lines of CrazyCracka suggesting that turn is reduced, but not completely exempt when you draw back.

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2014, 09:53:52 pm »
+2
Quote
First solution (minor/basic solution), some of the physics for horses could be reduced.  I personally don't see any issues with top speed or hitpoints.  But horse acceleration, maneuverability, and ability to bump at such low speeds... I see these all as great unbalances.  More so with maneuverability and the ability to bump at low speeds.  Maybe horses could get hung up on people unless the horse reaches a higher speed than what's currently set.  Maybe there's a way to make bumping folks greatly reduce the horses speed.  After bumping 2 or 3 players... maybe the horse would be so slow, it would get hung up on the next person in line.  Being able to knockdown so many folks in a row has to be a great unbalance.  And being able to maneuver so easily doing so is kind of crazy.

I agree that low speed bumps are exploitable, but I think that the heavier horses should be able to bump a group without slowing down that much. Most of the horses with the best charge have below average maneuver (which is closely tied to acceleration).

Quote
My suggestion is... as soon as the player hits left-click to draw/aim... he loses all ability to turn the horse left or right.  Could even set it where he loses the ability to control the speed of the horse.  Of course, a horse acceleration is likely controlled by spurring the horse.  But slowing down is usually done by pulling back on the reins.  Either way, you can't accurately aim while doing either one.

Definitely a unique suggestion. This seems difficult to add even with WSE2, though, which isn't going to get updated in the foreseeable future.

Discounting whether it's possible or not, from what I gather, your speed is locked and you can't turn while drawing, correct? This makes HA weaker against ranged since the HA can no longer retaliate. Other cav that are chasing HA will move to their right side so they can't get shot at. HA will have trouble charging infantry since they can't turn and follow the infantry's movements. From the HA perspective, it may feel very limiting and clunky. This is definitely the type of thing that would need playtesting so it feels good. Removing control from 1h+lance isn't a great idea since they always need to keep moving to hit at the perfect angle.

Offline Protemus

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2014, 10:34:28 pm »
+2
With that said, I know the question still stands... well, 1-on-1 with a HA, what's to prevent him from bumping me, shooting while I'm on the ground, then circling around, getting close with bow drawn and repeating.

Skill perhaps ? Take me for example, i already learned what players are skilled in dodging my bump and not only dodging but hitting me in the process and what are those who will keep holding shield up like that will save them from bumping.
Seriously, if you ever played Cav you would knew you can't just go herp-a-derp on a Plated Charger and just bump people to death, I don't see such builds around played massively.

Let's just take Sister_of_Charity or Macbeth the fegit, you won't see me bumping them unless there's someone distracting them, why ? Because they know how to handle cavalry and they'll actually stab me in the face. What I do with them is if they are not distracted, just move a long and hope some melee will kill them.

Truth to be told it's not about Bump/stab/cut/shoot combo being OP, it's about you guys learning how to dodge it, nothing unfair about it, deal with it, adapt, learn new things, that's it.
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Offline Mallets

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2014, 11:04:01 pm »
0
Definitely a unique suggestion. This seems difficult to add even with WSE2, though, which isn't going to get updated in the foreseeable future.

Discounting whether it's possible or not, from what I gather, your speed is locked and you can't turn while drawing, correct? This makes HA weaker against ranged since the HA can no longer retaliate. Other cav that are chasing HA will move to their right side so they can't get shot at. HA will have trouble charging infantry since they can't turn and follow the infantry's movements. From the HA perspective, it may feel very limiting and clunky. This is definitely the type of thing that would need playtesting so it feels good. Removing control from 1h+lance isn't a great idea since they always need to keep moving to hit at the perfect angle.

Nice to see someone give some thought to my suggestion.  Again, it's not a suggestion set in stone.  As Cracka mentioned, may an HA's turning is simply reduced when aiming (not removed all-togehter).  As you mentioned... such things would have to be tested.

And my suggestion was never really meant to include Lancers or 1-hand Cav.  I just threw it out there as a possibility.

Offline Donkey_Thrower

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2014, 01:21:55 am »
0
your proposed solution isn't really realistic.  horses can be trained to turn by squeezing them with your thighs.  How do you think horse archers maneuvered their horses in real life?
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Offline Kalam

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Re: Mallets Solution to HA & Cav
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2014, 01:25:17 am »
+2
They're both fairly balanced, man. o.O

Yes, there's more annoyance than other classes but both these classes don't have as much sway in the result of a match as they used to.