Poll

Remove HA/HX form cRPG

YES
157 (53.6%)
NO
136 (46.4%)

Total Members Voted: 291

Author Topic: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG  (Read 6714 times)

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Offline _Tak_

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2014, 02:24:19 pm »
0
I voted no, for the sake of variety. Leave them in, more classes spice up the gameplay.

Instead do the following (I can't believe I am suggesting a nerf):

- Make bows and crossbows unable to be used from horseback
- Copy all bow and crossbow items, remove the "unable to use from horseback"-flag of those new weapons again, add a "cavalry" in front of them and make them require both PD and HA
- Remove any aiming bonus HA is giving

The result: we changed the playstyle of the class. Since moving while shooting won't let them hit the broad side of a barn they need to play more like "Dragoons" or "Mounted Archers", which means they more or less can use their horse only to position themselves or to escape, but must remain stationary to shoot.

Advantage: much easier to be caught by enemy ranged and cavalry
Disadvantage: no change towards infantry

You basically voted yes.  Making bows and crossbows unable to be used from horseback basically means HX and HA are no more. therefore it basically removed all mounted ranged. Giving HA/HX worse stats than foot ranged will only made them completely useless.

The hate on HA/HX is completely retarded. You guys just want them to be a completely useless class so that no one will use it anymore. cRPG community is just a bunch of selfish fucks.  Its their playstyle dude, Deal with it

since cRPG forum is called forum.melee, lets nerf all ranged to the ground since everyone is melee.

- I am a polearmer who doesn't hate HA as much as you do
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 02:53:17 pm by _Tak_ »

Offline Thomek

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2014, 03:45:42 pm »
0
I agree of course, remove them. Use the flag for reload on horseback like Joker said.

They are more of a detriment than a positive for gameplay as a whole. The pleasure it gives the HA/HX is not worth the frustration and timewaste they cause to everyone else. The variety will suffer a little, but I think few will miss them..
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Offline Warborn304

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2014, 03:57:35 pm »
0
One step closer to the glorious master race which is melee gaming. Hope you bundle of stickss enjoy your 2h.
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Offline vipere

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2014, 04:00:32 pm »
+2
cRPG community is just a bunch of selfish fucks.  Its their playstyle dude, Deal with it

Horse archery is the most selfish playstyle you can find in this game, having fun being annoying.

and i wish i could "deal with it"

Offline Protemus

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2014, 04:12:42 pm »
0
I like being annoying.
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Offline pepejul

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2014, 04:35:20 pm »
+1
THEY ARE MY FAV TARGET !!!

DON'T REMOVE THEM !

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I LOVE YOU, ADMINS !

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Offline Munin

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2014, 04:48:57 pm »
0
THEY ARE MY FAV TARGET !!!

DON'T REMOVE THEM !

(click to show/hide)

But we cant have The Pepe in both teams at the same time, so it cant be balanced then...
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Offline pepejul

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2014, 04:59:20 pm »
0
Join PEPE CLAN and become HA hunters with MW arablests.... everybody will love you for that !

- Make a xbow alt or STF
- join SONS_OF_PEPE clan
- kill HAS
- be heroes

easy !
I LOVE YOU, ADMINS !

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2014, 11:58:34 pm »
+1
You basically voted yes.  Making bows and crossbows unable to be used from horseback basically means HX and HA are no more. therefore it basically removed all mounted ranged. Giving HA/HX worse stats than foot ranged will only made them completely useless.

The hate on HA/HX is completely retarded. You guys just want them to be a completely useless class so that no one will use it anymore. cRPG community is just a bunch of selfish fucks.  Its their playstyle dude, Deal with it

since cRPG forum is called forum.melee, lets nerf all ranged to the ground since everyone is melee.

- I am a polearmer who doesn't hate HA as much as you do

Now if you might stop your rant and the insults against me, I would like to clarify a few things:

I don't know if you read past the line you marked in bold, but I did not suggest to remove those weapons from horse archers. I rather suggested making a second set of ranged weapons specially for mounted ranged. I admit I did not write that, but I actually thought about making those weapons equally viable compared to the infantry archer weapons, just with a different focus, e.g. on firing speed and perhaps in exchange slightly less accuracy or damage.

My point was only to force ranged cav into immobility while shooting. I do not think this would make them uneffective at all, since foot archers aren't as well, and my suggestion would just turn ranged cavalry into foot archers which are slightly less effective but have the ability to get into better shooting positions and displace much easier and faster.

The other point is: I don't really hate mounted ranged or ranged in general (in difference to many others members here, granted). I just see the problems certain classes are causing in this game. Older forum users might roll with their eyes now, but my (in the meantime widely known) opinion is, that it's the game mode's fault. It's almost always infantry, which is complaining about the other classes, and as I have to admit, from their point of view, rightfully so.

Battle mode means you have to win by killing off the entire enemy team. This requires you to be able to basically be the "hunter" all the time. Which has two conditions: a) you are able to pick targets you are actually capable of hunting and b) you can prevent becoming the prey by evading "your" hunters.

Both cavalry and archers are capable of those things in different extents (cavalry is better at evading its hunters, while archers are better in picking weak targets), but infantry literally SUCKS at both things. Neither can they run away fast nor can they force someone into a fight most of the time. This renders them the only passive class in the game, whereas the other classes are active. While cavalry and archers can be "fighting" a few seconds after spawning already, most of the time infantry is just running over the battlefield. And once they finally start attacking an enemy, the fight is actually "interactive", which means enemies are usually blocking and counterattacking, which isn't the case most of the time when you are lancing or shooting. It could be that you attack and end up as the loser, and to land a blow you actually require your enemy to make a mistake by missing a block. The other classes do not rely so much on a direct failure, since they can attack unaware targets most of the time.

Summary: battle mode with killing all enemies doesn't work for infantry. It causes massive problems. And the differences between infantry on one side and cavalry and archers on the other side are most obvious in the case of ranged cavalry, because it combines the advantages of both without their disadvantages. It is THE perfect hunting class in a hunting game mode. In my eyes no buff/nerf or stat tweak at all could change that, because it's a problem of gameplay mechanics, and not of balancing weapon or character stats. You can't nerf HAs/HXs or buff infantry in a way that suddenly infantry will be able to hunt down HAs/HXs. Won't happen. The increased flexibility of cav and archers grants them increased fun on the battlefield and enhances their gameplay greatly, while infantry is more or less everybody's moron on the battlefield, desperately running after targets, trying to not get shot or trampled from all directions. They are a bit like the a little bit retarded kids from the neighbourship, which are only happy to play with each other (infantry vs. infantry clash in the middle), while the other kids are dodging them and making fun of them.

You have to change the damn game mode. If you had a conquest mode with several flags on the map which spawn right from the beginning, enabling the team to either win by capturing the majority of all flags or by exterminating the enemy team, things would be different. Infantry is good at taking and holding ground, and now this would allow them to actually win the game that way! Their passivity would be relativized, since they don't have to run after faster and more flexible classes. In fact the other classes had to adjust according to which flag the enemy infantry has decided to take and defend. A horse archer could win the map by killing the enemies, but infantry could win the map by not getting killed. And this time this is something infantry is actually good at. Just take a look at how "passive" infantry is in siege mode!

I have been advertising a true, single spawn multi flag conquest mode for a really long time now, and while many players seem to agree, most of them actually still prefer the round based team deathmatch, which battle mode actually is. Perhaps the devs should have bothered with creating a first prototype and testing how everything works out, but I guess with M:BG and everything this is a lost hope.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Senni__Ti

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2014, 12:17:09 am »
+5
Voted yes.
It's not the most OP class out there, certainly not the easiest, but it is the most annoying/frustrating to fight.

I'll miss being HA, but I'm seeing more than a fair few people bringing the worst out of the class, and then inflicting it on the general pop.
When it comes down to it, mounted range just doesn't fit with the current meta-game.
Battle, it's all about survival. (Where HA is a real game-breaker)
Siege/DTV isn't compatible with MR. (as a general rule)
And I don't see any other modes being added soon (conquest is covered by siege).

It's not the damage or accuracy people find annoying about MR, it's the ability to deal damage from a position of safety.
Very few classes stand a chance 1v1 with MR.
Realistically, I don't see a way of 'fixing' MR. The ability to shoot on the move is the problem, but it's also what defines MR; removing it would just be turning them into a gimped version of their foot based equivalents (and we'd be back to stop, shoot and kite).
You could cripple their riding, but from the infantry standpoint (where most the irritation is coming from), they are still just as problematic.

You could spend months/years coding trying to balance MR, honestly I don't expect anyone to do this. It would be far easier to just remove the class.
It doesn't really have any class built to counter it, so there wouldn't need to be much tweaking for the other classes on removal.

To try and explain my viewpoint; I have a lvl 34 HA, lvl 33 2h, lvl 32 (almost 33) 1h and lvl 27 1h/pole/shield cav. I've done a gen in all but HT, HX, Xbow, 1h cav and Hoplite.
I enjoy playing HA, but I can't justify my class when it's all too easy for it to become a tool for A-holes to dump on the community.

Offline Algarn

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2014, 12:19:52 am »
0
Voted yes.
It's not the most OP class out there, certainly not the easiest, but it is the most annoying/frustrating to fight.

I'll miss being HA, but I'm seeing more than a fair few people bringing the worst out of the class, and then inflicting it on the general pop.
When it comes down to it, mounted range just doesn't fit with the current meta-game.
Battle, it's all about survival. (Where HA is a real game-breaker)
Siege/DTV isn't compatible with MR. (as a general rule)
And I don't see any other modes being added soon (conquest is covered by siege).

It's not the damage or accuracy people find annoying about MR, it's the ability to deal damage from a position of safety.
Very few classes stand a chance 1v1 with MR.
Realistically, I don't see a way of 'fixing' MR. The ability to shoot on the move is the problem, but it's also what defines MR; removing it would just be turning them into a gimped version of their foot based equivalents (and we'd be back to stop, shoot and kite).
You could cripple their riding, but from the infantry standpoint (where most the irritation is coming from), they are still just as problematic.

You could spend months/years coding trying to balance MR, honestly I don't expect anyone to do this. It would be far easier to just remove the class.
It doesn't really have any class built to counter it, so there wouldn't need to be much tweaking for the other classes on removal.

To try and explain my viewpoint; I have a lvl 34 HA, lvl 33 2h, lvl 32 (almost 33) 1h and lvl 27 1h/pole/shield cav. I've done a gen in all but HT, HX, Xbow, 1h cav and Hoplite.
I enjoy playing HA, but I can't justify my class when it's all too easy for it to become a tool for A-holes to dump on the community.

Someone, give this man a medal. It's the first high level horse archer saying the truth I ever saw.

Offline Senni__Ti

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2014, 12:38:05 am »
+2
Had an idea as soon as I finished writing that:
http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/%28suggestion%29-horse-fatigue/msg1067980/#new

It wouldn't fix it as a whole, it would just be limiting MR's ability to the first ~80% of a round. But it would stop MR kiting to secure a round victory though (and probably valour whoring).

Removal is probably still the best bet, but it helps to have options for either poll result.

Offline lombardsoup

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2014, 01:41:38 am »
0
If people honestly think HA is getting removed...lol

Offline Algarn

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2014, 01:44:53 am »
0
If people honestly think HA is getting removed...lol

If 56% of people voted for a removal of horse archery, 75% or more would agree on a nerf/gameplay forced changes to end this situation.

Offline lombardsoup

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Re: Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2014, 01:47:09 am »
-1
If 56% of people voted for a removal of horse archery, 75% or more would agree on a nerf/gameplay forced changes to end this situation.

...you realize that the devs aren't obligated to do jack shit right