Official poll for removal of Mounted Ranged from cRPG

[Aprikose]

worst idea ever

[MURDERTRON]

I don't think people understand what "counter" means.  A shielder can only survive a horse archer indefinitely, not counter it.  Shielders are slow, due to how shield weight works.  If they are 1 hander, then they also have short reach and will never counter a smart horse archer.  If they are a Hoplite, they will be even slower due to polearm length speed penalty, but have more reach.  Still not a counter.

The only real counters are ranged, as most (melee) cav have less riding than HA.  Lancing a moving horse from behind does nothing for damage.  2h and 1h can still do good damage, providing they can catch the horse archer, but horse collision physics make it very difficult to get a meaningful hit.  Throwing does garbage damage and takes half your ammo to kill a horse.  So that leaves archery and crossbows, which are easily counterable when alone.  It shouldn't take half a team of archers to nullify a horse archer.  Plus, they're likely to get run down if they all put their attention on the horse archer.

[CrazyCracka420]

As gay as HA/HX/HT are, they belong in the game.  It really wouldn't be hard for devs to make your accuracy drastically reduced if turning at max turn radius, or riding at high speeds.  Either that or make maneuverability terrible while aiming.

[San]

Horse archer has been much weaker at certain points in the past, and guess what, only the real hardcore assholes continued to play it. If you think it doesn't matter, then just reduce their accuracy and or damage significantly, because I firmly believe it will directly make the class less popular and less annoying. Some horse archers literally get valour nearly every round, you seriously don't think this doesn't affect their number at all?

I don't think I alluded to anything regarding how things affect their popularity; heck, many of the patches have continually nerfed HA. Of course they affect it, and I think there are issues with the first round and how peasants give too many points. The high amount of points that HA can achieve also gives hints towards how HA needs to be looked at due to its non-risky playstyle not being intended for that.

My issue is this: Considering HA damage continues to be reduced, will this really stop the complaints about HA? I'm skeptical because this past wpf patch decreased HA damage significantly yet the complaints remained. HA have been hit the most with this past wpf change.

I can't say much about accuracy since it was probably higher because of the low tier bow change and wpf curve, but HA damage has been continuously nerfed over the past year. I tried simulating what damage was like before randomization, with ranged penetration, wpf ^ 1.1, etc. and damage was overall higher by like 50%. This is discounting the significant damage increase from exponential speed bonus that was possible back then.

+3 Horn bow, +3 bodkins, 15/24, 5PT 170wpf, 4HA: 41 raw, 37 raw in the rain. 46-47 raw when going full speed on large warhorse. Final damage is decreased further to 65-85% if you don't hit the chest. You're looking at dealing 7-8 damage.

I know it's not a yumi and 6PD, but I confirmed that the numbers follows the damage formula at http://tinyurl.com/crpgcalc so simulated damages should be what is noticed in-game, possibly up to +6-7 raw from that from speed bonus.

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If my infantry builds could take 20 horse archer arrows before I die, it surely would annoy me less than the 8 it takes now. If my horse could take 15 horse archer arrows before it would die, I would surely be less annoyed by it, and more inclined to have a go and catching one off guard. Horse archery has been a state where I pretty much shrugged of their arrows without being bothered at all.

Of course their strength matters for the popularity of the class and the annoyance it causes, really don't see why you think it doesn't.

If you force HA into -5 damage cut arrows to deal 3 damage, that may be achievable. I was trying to say that the core of the annoyances involved are not from damage, but due to the stun and being the best at dealing damage while avoiding any danger. Maybe not even stun since ranged stagger was removed and the complaints came back within a month. Of course, a reticule bigger than the moon and dealing miniscule-no damage will help, but c'mon, you knew what I meant about addressing the core issues. I definitely think that the lower damage helped and I'm much braver to attack HA nowadays, but without addressing the main problems, the complaints will rise again in due time.

Besides, a high level HA can just get +2 PD or give up damage and machine gun with a Nomad Bow (will still do enough damage to stun). Others have stated how a shield doesn't really help, too, even though that (and a shield on the back) reduces incoming HA damage to 0.

-Kiting all cavalry players while slowly whittling down their horses
-Ability to bump shielders/infantry and shoot them if they try to attack
-Harassing non-cavalry players with constant stun and damage as the HA circles them
-Timing out the clock for valour on the lightest armored enemies

I'd like to address as many of these directly as possible instead of using a roundabout method. If these can't be solved, I think the class should just be removed. It will be difficult without WSE2, so complex mechanics such as the shooting angle can't really be changed. I don't mind HA being a good/great class as long as it can be combated properly. On second thought, maybe reducing all horse ranged to 0 effective riding (or directly altering speed/maneuver if possible) may be the better choice to fully rule out the option of kiting.

[MURDERTRON]

Just make it so I can whistle the HA's horse over, while he's on it.  Would fix everything.

[Corsair831]

It doesn't matter how weak or inaccurate they become, since the person on the receiving end only notices how annoying it is to deal with them. I wouldn't mind them being removed, but it's a pretty self-centered wish and some people sincerely like being able to play HA even though many others try to grief. I'm also a little jaded since it's nothing compared to prime HX or even HA a year ago that blasted off loads of health with a single shot. Slowing down HA kiting while returning the ranged speed bonus and giving players with high IF/armor super armor to low damage attacks will provide options for all classes to deal with HA.

Bump shots deal 50% damage, which is the same for bump slashes and stabs. Don't know why people would believe otherwise.

what about if i, and only i, was given a gun?

it'd be absolutely great fun for me, 50/0 every round, one shot killing everyone, an absolute blast.

however, i don't think anyone on the receiving end of my game-breaking, irritating class would be having much fun. would probably be rather detrimental to everyone else's game experience in fact.

.. with that in mind, let's try our best to balance out the enjoyment of the minority who actually play horse archer, against the huge levels of annoyance it causes literally everyone who tries to play against them.

[Grumbs]

what about if i, and only i, was given a gun?

it'd be absolutely great fun for me, 50/0 every round, one shot killing everyone, an absolute blast.

however, i don't think anyone on the receiving end of my game-breaking, irritating class would be having much fun. would probably be rather detrimental to everyone else's game experience in fact.

.. with that in mind, let's try our best to balance out the enjoyment of the minority who actually play horse archer, against the huge levels of annoyance it causes literally everyone who tries to play against them.

This is the crux of if with HA. The only person having fun is the guy left clicking on people on a horse, and it only takes 1 or 2 to spoil it for everyone. In melee its fun regardless because you are taking part. Against a HA you are just a passive victim

[lombardsoup]

This is the crux of if with HA. The only person having fun is the guy left clicking on people on a horse, and it only takes 1 or 2 to spoil it for everyone. In melee its fun regardless because you are taking part. Against a HA you are just a passive victim

Its even better when HA's are smart enough to coordinate with one another and concentrate their fire on certain targets while the others charge home and distraction bump (moreso when the "distractions" are super heavy HA)

...shit there I go again.

[Algarn]

This is the crux of if with HA. The only person having fun is the guy left clicking on people on a horse, and it only takes 1 or 2 to spoil it for everyone. In melee its fun regardless because you are taking part. Against a HA you are just a passive victim

So much truth... Also, notice that horse archers don't have to drop their bow to run. -> superiority on archers, you can chase them archers, they won't harm you a lot with their sword in most cases, since they deal damage with bow only.

To sum up possible solutions:

1)
- Horse archers can't take heavier horse than war horse.
- Bumping with light horse deals damage to horse, depending of the speed, and the armor of the target.
- Heavy horses like the war horse get almost no damage from it.

The drawback is that light cavalry is useless. Maybe make that penalty on light horses similar to the heavy ones if the character doesn't "check" the requirements, ex: the threeshold is 100 in archery and 1 HA.

2)
- The angle of shooting from the horse gives you accuracy penalties.

3)
- Secondary mod for bows that are usable on horses -> on foot, stats of bows stay the same, and get nerfed only in the secondary mod "usable on horse only", like the great lance, while the primary mod is "not usable on horse", and remain the same.

4)
- Manoeuvrability & speed penalties when aiming from a horse.

Sorry for any typos/other english mistakes, it's midinight there, cba to type in a decent english. Hope my post did help a bit about the current solutions that could be applied to solve the problem.

[jtobiasm]

who cares, c-rpg is easy anyway


Higher skill cap on maid marian

[stickher]

I hate "ha" and if they left maybe it would be better but just because me and almost everyone else hates them doesn't mean we should take them out the game.

also if we were to nerf them instead why not make the HA skill reduce the buffs from the ridding skill but still allow them to ride the horses by difficulty. Doing this can make their kiting weaker.

[gallonigher]

HAs wouldn't be as much of a threat if we could pick up any shield or toss any throwing weapon; they should be less effective for us than those who have points invested into these skills but we should still be able to do it

[Joseph Porta]

Nah

[Joseph Porta]

who cares, c-rpg is easy anyway


Higher skill cap on maid marian

Lel

I remember it tooklessons from Tizzango for you to start even comprehending what to do. So it took someone else to teach you how to do things but c-rpg is so easy. Yeah, after 1000 hrs of in game time it is no miracle you are good.  in no way c-rpg is a plug n play lets reck everything game.  though you might argue that it is solely time and dedication that gets you to be better.

[Donkey_Thrower]

HAs wouldn't be as much of a threat if we could pick up any shield or toss any throwing weapon; they should be less effective for us than those who have points invested into these skills but we should still be able to do it

this is the correct solution.

Allow anyone to use shields or throwing weapons.

if you don't have the skill to use a shield, when you get hit it staggers you longer the heavier the shield is.

If you don't have the skill to use a throwing weapon, the accuracy and damage are thrown off.

I mean really, it doesn't take training to pick up a stick with a pointy end and throw it.   To land it on a moving target from donkeyback? maybe. but your average foot soldier should be able to do this.