Shield bash

[Phew]

It'll be clamped, lol. Clamped at 50 raw, which is close to heavy gauntlet punching damage. Even if it isn't clamped, 1 + 45 + 11 = 57 raw. That's definitely a lot, but it's not as much as you think without speed bonus, hold bonus, etc. It'll do 15-25 damage to most at 57, 8-18 at 50.

Slightly more detailed of what I think would work

-New formula: Strength/3 + shield skill * 3 + max(shield weight, armor / 7)
-Defensive shield bash damage is divided by 2 instead of 5
-Blocking negates damage
-Clamp to 50 instead of 30

Looks good, but could you shift the "vulnerable" window for the defensive shove to be later in the animation? This nudge leaves you vulnerable to be hit for an eternity before the nudge lands, so everyone just spams through it. I understand that it should be a risky move, but the risk should be incurred if you miss or after the nudge lands, not while you are shoving your shield forward. It doesn't make sense that pushing your shield forward magically makes weapons phase right through it. It isn't a very good "defensive" move since it basically gives your enemy a free hit before it can land.

[San]

Nothing concrete.

The code is here: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2uSZrPWE

Another file has animations.


I think the pole shove is a good premium example and the shield shove should be more like it.
  ["nudge_pole_shove", 0, amf_priority_striked|amf_play,
   [0.75, "anim_nudge_pole_shove", 0, 25, blend_in_release],
 ],

Focus on the second row: Duration, animation name, beginning frame, ending frame, and sequence flags.

Now, here are the 1h nudges:

(click to show/hide)

["swingright_fist_mirrored", 0, amf_priority_striked|amf_play,
   [0.45, "right_swing_mirrored", 0, 41, blend_in_release],
 ],
 ["direct_fist_mirrored", 0, amf_priority_striked|amf_play,
   [0.65, "direct_fist_mirrored", 0, 41, blend_in_release],
 ], 
["nudge_shove", 0, amf_priority_striked|amf_play,
   [0.85, "defend_shield_forward", 0, 25, blend_in_release],
  ],

Shield nudges

(click to show/hide)

["nudge_shield_bash", 0, amf_priority_striked|amf_play,
   [0.45, "defend_shield_left", 8, 20, blend_in_release], 
  ],
["nudge_shield_shove", 0, amf_priority_striked|amf_play,
   [0.75, "Shield_bash_13.9.11", 0, 20, blend_in_release], 
   #[0.4, "defend_shield_parry_all", 0, 25, blend_in_release],     
  ],
 ["nudge_shield_backhand", 0, amf_priority_striked|amf_play,
   [0.9, "defend_shield_right", 0, 50, blend_in_release], 
  ],

swingright fist = 1h neutral nudge
nudge shove = 1h defense nudge
direct fist = 1h attack nudge

Shield bash = neutral nudge
Shield shove = defense nudge
Shield backhand = attack nudge



I am not too knowledgeable about this, but less dead frames by changing the starting frame number, decreasing the duration since shield has a noticeably higher one, or changing the animation itself might help (or just make it too good). I am also not very knowledgeable on how hitboxes work for these things. Perhaps the current hitbox feels off because it's so slow and clunky?

[Phew]

Yeah, the pole shove is a good baseline for what the shield shove should be, in terms of speed/vulnerability.

The neutral nudge is about perfect in terms of speed, but a third to half the time it just whiffs for no reason (seems to get worse with increasing ping). Maybe it's just a mismatch of the apparent reach due to shield height and the actual reach that's probably hard-coded. Do you think it's possible to make the reach of the neutral and offensive shield nudges be equal to the shield height? Round shields currently have such a huge advantage against projectiles, it would be nice if kite/heater-type shields were given some advantage beside cavalry forcefield (which is stupid and needs to go away, but that's a different topic).

In any case, I feel good about the future of shield mechanics with San on the job

[San]

I'm not entirely sure if it will work out for the better, but it's more fun to try out something interesting and then take it away next patch if it doesn't work out than do nothing with an unsatisfactory mechanic. I know many others don't really share my perspective. Your average shielder would do around 26 raw, pretty much chip damage for long fights where each player cannot penetrate the other's defenses. I also wanted to give heavy shields a role outside of just being crappier shields and give strength-oriented players their own unique strength at penetrating formations.

I think if there are groups that are concerned about both sides, it's looking good. http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/hand-pavise-shield-vs-heavy-round-shield/

Trying out a buckler with 8 shield helped open my eyes to the rate at which the forcefield increases. It leads me to believe that kite shields become quite formidable at high shield skill, though I can't say that with complete certainty without trying them for a few days on one like I did with the buckler.

[Jack1]

it would be realistic, yes, but it would be highly overpowered if you give shield bashes, or nudges in general, an actual decent damage.

nudges can go around any blocks, they are basically impossible to counter. I can view NA 1 just being a nudge fest as soon as or if this gets implemented were everybody blocks each other until they get close enough to nudge. The only thing comparable to what this would be is crush though. with crush though you must have a maul which is more than spammable if you try to go for an overhead. mauling is high risk high reward where as this will be no risk and small reward.

[Phew]

it would be realistic, yes, but it would be highly overpowered if you give shield bashes, or nudges in general, an actual decent damage.

If you don't want a nudge to damage you, press RMB. Where is the problem?

[Jack1]

If you don't want a nudge to damage you, press RMB. Where is the problem?

It is an instant hit that you can't prepare for. The only way to change that is to make it have a charge up period but that would just mean its a 5th attack direction

[MURDERTRON]

If you're going to add damage to it, it would be some what broken for the reasons Jack is listing.  You could, I guess, try to balance it with another mechanic, like shield bashing damages your shield at least somewhat significantly.

[San]

That's interesting, never thought of shield damage.

Shield bash already does damage in the mid-20s. It just doesn't damage anyone since it's almost always reduced to 0. The average would only be a few points higher with those specializing being around 10-15 pts higher. Only archers and enemies in cloth would really feel much, with specialized builds being able to chip 5-10% off of low-medium armor.

Maybe I'm not too great at shield bashing, but to me it's pretty slow and risky. I might need to try to get better at it so I can better understand.

[Tydeus]

Maybe I'm not too great at shield bashing, but to me it's pretty slow and risky. I might need to try to get better at it so I can better understand.

Just talk to Huscarlton Banks about nudges. 

[Huscarlton_Banks]

As a nudge spammer:

As far as rankings go, from best to worst:

(click to show/hide)

Shield neutral nudge (If you're shit at manual blocking like me) - Lower risk since you don't have to care about block direction, damages paper armor/naked people slightly more than other neutral nudges.
1h neutral nudge - Automatic KD on kickers when you have a short weapon > damaging naked people/peasants
1h attack nudge - Generally yields the biggest stun time, plus it knocks down s-key attackers. "Big" nudge damage by default on KD on naked people.
Shield neutral nudge (If you can block well without a shield) - Damages paper armor/naked people slightly more than other neutral nudges.
2H/Pole neutral nudge - Basically 1h/shield nudge, but with no special effects : (
Pole shove - Fast, intuitive to land
1h shove - Slower than pole shove, but still intuitive to land
Shield shove - This is actually an odd one, I'd expect it to be on par with pole shove based on the animation stats, but it seems harder to land somehow. It's either the animation not matching the script that actually does the hit detection, or shields having a longer parry time after a block.
Shield attack nudge - Unnaturally long dead animation time (no blocking, attacking) after the nudge.
2h pommel strike - Probably the hardest one to use since you need to be holding an attack + it requires a specific direction + high str/weapon weight are necessary to make it effective. I have yet to see anyone use this who wasn't just screwing around. I've had mild success trolling shielders with it, but a neutral nudge or just swinging would have been better for pure assists.

Generally, neutral nudge is best nudge for polearm/2h/swashbuckler/shielder, just because it has the lowest recovery time, is the fastest to land, and seems to be the least wonky with hit detection as ping gets higher.

It's mostly about making your opponent block again if they are already blocking, interrupting an attack instead of blocking (doesn't work against people who hold attacks with good enough reflexes/ping), neutralizing an enemy long enough to swing at another enemy before blocking, making an enemy's character turn ever-so-slightly slower as you run behind them, or helping a teammate get a hit.

Shoves are mostly just useful for getting away from an enemy/shoving them off a cliff.

A 50 damage clamp seems hilarious to me, since it'd mean that anyone who's using a x/39 steel shield build will probably oneshot another x/39 steel shield build, unless they've leveled enough to get 9+ str for +3 light-medium armors.

In general those builds would tend to die in one real hit from most players anyway, but it seems funnier when it's from a shield bash somehow. I guess they'd just die in 2-3 bashes with the current system though, so no big change there.

I dunno if agent_deliver_damage_to_agent hits the feet like it seems to in non-WSE, so maybe it would do less damage than I imagine.

[Tydeus]

A 50 damage clamp seems hilarious to me, since it'd mean that anyone who's using a x/39 steel shield build will probably oneshot another x/39 steel shield build, unless they've leveled enough to get 9+ str for +3 light-medium armors.

Haha, yeah. That's an amusing way to look at it. This is one of the reasons why I don't really want to be giving nudges damage, that's not what they should be for. If we need to tweak frame data (what is this a 2d fighter?) then we should do that.

[San]

Damage reduction on neutral shield nudge would make sense then after that analysis, maybe /2 and defense /3. This would cause them to deal 0 damage most of the time.

I dunno, maybe I'm just underestimating the 50 damage Max, avg 25, since that's just like a 22-25b weapon swing with *no* speed bonus, hold, etc. A 3 strength character will get 1 shot from a light breeze

[Gurnisson]

The problem with making shieldbash do damage is that it is not possible to defend oneself against it in any way atm. (not fun!)

This

[Kafein]

Well honestly it's still easier to defend oneself against shieldbashes than against projectiles. Outrunning most shielders isn't really a feat.