Horse archery is too strong

[MURDERTRON]

Just add a throwing item called a carrot that forces horses to ride over to it and eat it.  NBD.

[//saxon]

Just add a throwing item called a carrot that forces horses to ride over to it and eat it.  NBD.

the whole server will be throwing carrots and one horse will be going crazy 

[Joseph Porta]

With a schrapnel mine underneath? 

[UnholyRolyPoly]

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For some reason my screenshot is a little smudgy, but I hope it is readable still. The top two players on the left team are horse archers. They have literally carried their team some rounds, outscore anyone else on their team and have a lot of kills. This is not an isolated occurrence, they have been playing horse archer for a while and they continously yield similar results. Granted, they seem fairly good at it and probably have very high level builds. Yet for a class that is so poorly implemented into the overall game design as it has no counters, consistently delays, and is literally zero fun to fight against, this level of strength is absolutely unacceptable. Also notice how their team lost 4 rounds, yet they have less deaths. Also, it was raining this entire round.

In my opinion horse archery should probably be plainly removed. If it wasn't for the historical precedent, no game designer would ever think of putting such a class in such a game. If horse archery has to stay, which is understandable, it should not be a higher than top tier class able to carry teams. Any amount of horse archers is detrimental to the experience of the larger playerbase, a high amount of horse archers is disastrous. The grumbles on the server speak for itself. There are already a number of threads created on the subject, one was created as I was typing this.

Here is one with some discussion on creative ways to nerf horse archery
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/suggestions-for-nerfing-horse-archers/

I just hope to draw attention from Tydeus or San about this situation by going all General Discussion and I hope they understand something should be done. There are many, many ways to nerf HA, feel free to discuss them. I don't reallly care how, as long as a nerf is done. Here, have a useless poll.

So two guys happen to be REALLY good at HA and top the boards so it needs to be nerfed?  What about when two really good 2h/polearm/shielders top the boards? 

Horse archery is just fine.  It's not as easy as it looks.  And very few people will become good enough to carry a team.  A HA's primary role is to kill enemy cavarly and harass inf.  Most people fail in both regards because they either don't know how to ride or shoot.  There is a fine art to hitting targets from horseback.  You lead every shot different based on the speed and angle of approach.  The few REALLY good HA's mastered it.  And the best HA's also know how to out ride the enemy.  It requires loads of awareness because every archer, cav, and polearm wants you dead. 

The average HA is as likely to hit teammates as enemies.  They will probably get destroyed by faster lancer cav because they don't know how to ride.  And they will not get many kills. 

The truth is everybody wants HA's nerfed because they are a bunch of melee pansies.  They want to play Na3 on Na1.  This is a combat simulation.  HA's play a very specific role and have anti classes like everyone else.  If you want them dead....  make a 15-24 lancer and ride a fast horse. 

[Grumbs]

Being good is optional when you can kite everything and when you have the advantage over pretty much every class. Even with a shield they will just shoot when you lower it to attack, and if you don't attack you will get bumped then shot when you're getting up. Or they will get behind the shield and you will have to cover multiple sides

Ranged don't even get an advantage over them because a moving target is harder to hit than something thats stationary most of the time

Meh, its a really badly implemented class. Its only there because of realism. If this were any other game no game designer would implement a class like HA and HX are

[UnholyRolyPoly]

Being good is optional when you can kite everything and when you have the advantage over pretty much every class. Even with a shield they will just shoot when you lower it to attack, and if you don't attack you will get bumped then shot when you're getting up. Or they will get behind the shield and you will have to cover multiple sides

Ranged don't even get an advantage over them because a moving target is harder to hit than something thats stationary most of the time

Meh, its a really badly implemented class. Its only there because of realism. If this were any other game no game designer would implement a class like HA and HX are

That's simply not true.  Foot ranged have a huge advantage on HA's because they are more accurate and they can position themselves on high ground.  Yea HA's are a moving target.  But they present a target 5 times larger than the average infantry.  A HA 1 on 1 can kill an archer if he hugs and bumps him.  But most of the time ranged shoots your horse out from a distance.  Throwers are extremely effective vs HA's as well. 

The fact is HA is a counter class to melee infantry.  We ride around behind you and harass the shit out of you.  That's the nature of the class.  If you are melee you will despise HA's.  But it has nothing to do with being over powered.  It's simply a counter to what you do. 

As I said.... if you want to kill HA's..... go ranged, light lancer, or thrower. 

I've never understood the constant whining to turn this game into melee only.  I have various alts.  I played 10 gens as a 2h.  Several as a shielder (in which I completely forgot how to manual block.)  And several as a HA.  I love it when there are a lot of archers on.  It forces the teams to play smart.  The problem is..... most people don't want to do that.  They want to run in and kill which usually results in getting shot to pieces.  Stop trying to nerf everything to the point we remove tactics from the game.  Tactics defeat any class.  If you guys want to melee.... just go to Na3/Eu3. 

[Grumbs]

So we need even more ranged now just because of another OP ranged class? This game is getting ridiculous. 1 HA is worth several foot archers imo. They are more versatile, can kite forever and take a lot of shots before they go down. It takes more shots to down a horse than a ranged player

Pretty sure an arrow outranges a lance btw

[UnholyRolyPoly]

So we need even more ranged now just because of another OP ranged class? This game is getting ridiculous. 1 HA is worth several foot archers imo. They are more versatile, can kite forever and take a lot of shots before they go down. It takes more shots to down a horse than a ranged player

Pretty sure an arrow outranges a lance btw

Ok... go build a HA.... and charge 2 archers. 

Then go do a STF 15-24 lancer and ride an eastern horse and kill all the HA's you want. 

The fact of the matter is...... there are some REALLY good HA's in the game and you want to nerf the class because of their skill....

That's like saying agi shielders are OP because of San.  It's not the class.... though he is high level and very fast.  But without skill the build is meaningless. 

[vipere]

Ok... go build a HA.... and charge 2 archers. 
why would you charge 2 archers when you can snip them from far away ?!!

Then go do a STF 15-24 lancer and ride an eastern warhorse and kill all the HA's you want. 
you will last less than 2 min if you are chasing HA as cav

The fact of the matter is...... there are some REALLY good HA's in the game and you want to nerf the class because of their skill....
for me its not about skill but about how annoying they are, being HA in this game is egoist,1 HA have a lot of fun while his targets cant enjoy the game.

[Glyph]

Let's all just go and play WotR, no HAs there and no nerfings done to any of our beloved classes!

(just trolling please don't teabag)

[Molly]

Let's all just go and play WotR, no HAs there and no nerfings done to any of our beloved classes!

(just trolling please don't teabag)

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[UnholyRolyPoly]

You don't chase HA's.  That's exactly what they want you to do.  You out manuever them and hit them while they are engaged with another target.  A fast lancer can come out of nowhere. 

And why would any HA be able to out snipe an archer?  First eh has to be standing still to get a decent shot (distance.)  So if the HA is standing still at 40 yards away and the archer is doing the same.... who presents the bigger target? 

As far as enjoyment......?   Why do you play this game?  I play because I love the competition.  I love the challenge.  If you play this game to melee.... go to the duel server.  It's one click away.  If you want to melee multiple people.... go play siege.  But if you want a real challenge....  play battle.  That's where all classes play a role.  That's where you have to keep your head on a swivel because a lancer could smoke you.  You have to be aware of every enemy on the field so you don't get shot while trying to melee etc etc. 

Again...  I will never understand the desire to turn this into a pure melee mod.  When ranged was at it's worst.... this mod sucked.  Every single round the infantry charged and there were 2-3 archers on each team.  It was a pure melee fest.  There were no tactics.  It was one big duel server. 

[XyNox]

So we need even more ranged now just because of another OP ranged class? This game is getting ridiculous. 1 HA is worth several foot archers imo. They are more versatile, can kite forever and take a lot of shots before they go down. It takes more shots to down a horse than a ranged player

Pretty sure an arrow outranges a lance btw

According to the forums 120 % of the playerbase is ranged anyway. With that much friendly ranged around, what is keeping you ( and pure melee players in general who are refusing to implement any form of ranged into their builds ) from just staying somewhere within the effective range of friendly ranged so enemy horse archers cannot attack you without putting themselves in danger of being shot back ? Of course horse ranged will chase after the individual which is not able/willing to stick to its team.

I am not really fond of horse archery myself and how it is implemented into the game. Changes that makes the class more susceptible to e.g. cav as a return for their ability to hard counter any melee inf sure is not out of the question. Still I am not sure what pure melee players, who refuse taking any form of ranged themselves AND also refuse to cooperate with their friendly ranged expect to happen. Should melees be able to shoot lazers out of their longswords/poleaxes when horse ranged is around or to groundslam their shields, creating a shockwave that dehorses any horse ranged within a distance of 50 meters ? Seriously, what is supposed to happen to make inf counter horse ranged ( appart from changing battlemode into some more sophisticated and objective based, which would be the right way to go IMO ) ?

Personally I can understand people who demand this class to be removed as the reasons for its existance are most probably only historically related. I am not the one to decide that however but I am pretty sure those in charge wont delete a class from the game. No matter how many nerfs HA/HX would get, as long as a horse will be faster than inf on foot and as long as horse ranged can shoot ( which both will unavoidably be the case ), horse ranged will hardcounter inf. Either you make up your mind and let your ranged help you or you deal with it.

In the end I think UnholyRolyPoly nailed it:

I've never understood the constant whining to turn this game into melee only. [...] It [ranged] forces the teams to play smart.  The problem is..... most people don't want to do that. They want to run in and kill which usually results in getting shot to pieces.  Stop trying to nerf everything to the point we remove tactics from the game.  Tactics defeat any class.  If you guys want to melee.... just go to Na3/Eu3. 

[UnholyRolyPoly]

According to the forums 120 % of the playerbase is ranged anyway. With that much friendly ranged around, what is keeping you ( and pure melee players in general who are refusing to implement any form of ranged into their builds ) from just staying somewhere within the effective range of friendly ranged so enemy horse archers cannot attack you without putting themselves in danger of being shot back ? Of course horse ranged will chase after the individual which is not able/willing to stick to its team.

I am not really fond of horse archery myself and how it is implemented into the game. Changes that makes the class more susceptible to e.g. cav as a return for their ability to hard counter any melee inf sure is not out of the question. Still I am not sure what pure melee players, who refuse taking any form of ranged themselves AND also refuse to cooperate with their friendly ranged expect to happen. Should melees be able to shoot lazers out of their longswords/poleaxes when horse ranged is around or to groundslam their shields, creating a shockwave that dehorses any horse ranged within a distance of 50 meters ? Seriously, what is supposed to happen to make inf counter horse ranged ( appart from changing battlemode into some more sophisticated and objective based, which would be the right way to go IMO ) ?

Personally I can understand people who demand this class to be removed as the reasons for its existance are most probably only historically related. I am not the one to decide that however but I am pretty sure those in charge wont delete a class from the game. No matter how many nerfs HA/HX would get, as long as a horse will be faster than inf on foot and as long as horse ranged can shoot ( which both will unavoidably be the case ), horse ranged will hardcounter inf. Either you make up your mind and let your ranged help you or you deal with it.

In the end I think UnholyRolyPoly nailed it:

I completely agree.  And to add to your point....  as a HA..... my favorite targets are the agi 2h/polearm who run around trying to flank.  I'm helping my team by harassing the shit out of them. 

Those guys exploit their builds to run in and hit people in the back.  What's so different between that and HA? 

[matt2507]

Those guys exploit their builds to run in and hit people in the back.  What's so different between that and HA?

They don't spawnkill, they don't delay a the end of round and they are less anoying than ha.