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Does horse archery require a nerf?

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Author Topic: Horse archery is too strong  (Read 32494 times)

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Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #315 on: July 23, 2014, 05:52:08 pm »
+1
There's some speculation that the Amesbury archer buried near Stonehenge from the Bronze Age used a war bow of similar proportions, and the stable Strontium isotopes in his teeth and bones show he was born, raised, and spent most of his adult life in the Baltic. But that could just be wishful thinking as the bow doesn't survive, we only have his arrowheads, wrist-guard and deformed shoulders to suggest something more.

They found a yew bowstave with Otzi the iceman also, but apparantly he hadn't finished shaping it, probably to replace the one he had lost while fighting other men. (Cause its believed he had blood of several humans on his arrows and knife, and his coat, and he had arrows and bowstring but no finished bow, but he also had an arrow in his back.. so he probably dropped his bow and ran off when he got shot.) Was it going to be a longbow to be used to get revenge on whoever shot him? Most likely. But was it going to recurved? With no way of tillering besides floortiller, I really doubt he would have been able to.
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #316 on: July 23, 2014, 07:57:25 pm »
+2
and since a longbow IS a recurve bow, I stopped reading, because as usual, it was evident that hollywood knowledge has won out over actual historic evidence.
Even the historical Mary Rose bows clearly demonstrate that a longbow is not a recurve bow.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #317 on: July 23, 2014, 11:51:04 pm »
+2
Apparently longbow is to Europeans the english what katana is to weeaboos.

There's a reason "Agincourt" is the only stickied thread on this subforum. Also americans saying that is a bit much. I've seen just as much pop culture bullshit myths about the longbow in american media and education.
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Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #318 on: July 24, 2014, 12:23:51 pm »
+1
Even the historical Mary Rose bows clearly demonstrate that a longbow is not a recurve bow.

I believe they clearly show that they ARE recurve: if a bow of massive poundage starts to bend when unstrung, you discard it, situation allowing, because it is losing weight and release speed. The Mary Rose was a flagship, the best of the best for the king. I dont believe they would have had old, overused, bent bows on board.

I think that they would have had new top quality bows onboard the flagship, for the best archers to protect the King. Yet, we see most of the bow staves they recovered are slightly bent.

I know this is far from an exact science, but I watched this, and Mike Loades agrees with everything I believe, if I am honest. I watched the whole of this program and was fucking jaw dropped: everything I believe, this guy believes, and while that is circular reasoning at best, watch and see for yourself, because I am not the best at making compelling arguments but these guys at least have English a native language and express themselves better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zTDHOcWbVLQ#t=611

I really couldn't believe this program as I watched it, I found the presenter etc when I went looking for info on Nordic shield duels, and while everything you watch/read must be seen as someone's opinion or representation, I watched all of this series, and I think this guy Mike Loades has a pretty good head on his shoulders, and doesn't just talk shit but actually tries and attempts what he thinks is possible and doable.

See for yourself what they say about the bows, and see what you think?
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #319 on: July 24, 2014, 02:25:36 pm »
+2
Historical tests had the result that a sharpened longbow can cut through a katana.

No really, I am no expert in bows, and I think this topic was derailed heavily, but my personal opinion is that I agree that the longbow probably was the "strongest" bow.

Since I said I have no clue what I am talking about my opinion isn't really of any value, but hear me out anyway:

I guess we agree that for a long shot with a bow you need a lot of energy. The more energy, the longer the shot. That's obvious.

Now if we look at the bows, I think we all agree that the English/Welsh longbows required the highest drawing power of all bows. I mean just look at the backs of the people who used them! And I think it is relatively safe to say that the average Briton was a bit taller and bigger than the average Turk/Arab, I think what is true nowadays wasn't different back then.

I also think it is nice to know with which techniqes the bows were made, be it recurve, composite or whatever. But in the end it is only determining how the bowyers dealt with the materials they had at their disposal. To stick with a similar example: you can lift an object with a wind either directly or by the use of a pulley. One way (with the pulley) feels easier than the other, because you don't have to put that much energy directly into lifting the object, it's rather spent in the "endurance" which you need to turn the wind a few times more than when lifting the object directly. I think it's "maximum power" vs. "endurance power". It's at least how it's said in German, I couldn't find a translation. BUT: once both objects are lifted they both have the same amount of power stored. So in the end I don't think that anything but the final draw weight matters. Every bow offers a certain resistance, and you have to overcome it to put energy into the arrow. The more resistance you have, the more energy can you put into the arrow. And it doesn't matter how that resistance is created, be it the material or the shape or both, in the end it all boils down to how much force you need to pull the string, since for every historic bow it has been done the same way. If there had been a compound bow I already wouldn't be so sure in my theory, since I can't really estimate the shift of power needed, but I think since the drawing length is limited a compound bow would be weaker than a normal bow of the same size, right?

So bottom line is: the Longbow had the higher drawing weight, which means it puts more energy into the arrow.

But here is the point: I think the arrow kicks in, too! My bet is that the arrows for longbows were much longer, thicker and thus heavier than those of the Turk bows. And not only proportionally, but even heavier than that! In Europe I think you had to deal much more with (plate-)armour than in the middle east, and the fighting was different in general. So the heavier arrows lead to the longbow perhaps not having the range of the Turk bow, but his arrows pack a much meaner punch than those of the Turk bow!

I think we can compare it with modern calibers a bit. The Turk bow is a 9mm gun, whereas the longbow is a .45 ACP. While the 9mm has a good range of about 200m or even more, the .45 ACP is so slow, it's subsonic ammunition by default! (In most cases, there is always some special cartridge). With tracer ammunition I could fire my gun and then watch the bullet travel to the target... But heaven forbid you get hit by a .45!

The .45 has a much bigger cartridge than the 9mm, but due to the heavier projectile it's slower and thus has the shorter reach. Still it hits much heavier than the 9mm.

And the same thing happens with the longbow. It was designed to be able to punch through plate armour on short range with the right tip, something which a man with a melee weapon often fails! And of course it was designed to engage the enemy as soon as possible, so they also tried to get the range as high as possible, but it was only secondary to the armour piercing aspect.

The Turk bow on the other hand had the main purpose of having the longest reach possible. In the middle east warfare was different than in Europe, it was more mobile, and they relied much more on ranged fighting than on melee, and in the end a lower percentage of the Saracen troops was armoured compared to European troops, and the armour usually was a bit weaker, as far as I know. (I know about the fact that they often wore cloth over their armour so the Europeans thought their majority was unarmoured, which is wrong). So the main objective was to be able to shoot before the enemy could shoot, and be it only for hitting their usually unarmoured horses first, depriving them of their mobility.

But since I think that in a direct fight of lightly armoured Muslims against heavily armoured Europeans the longer reach of the Turk bow would be negated by the lower stopping power, whereas the longbow has only slightly lower reach but is more deadly, I think the longbow is the more useful tool in general. Edit: but only because I had to consider the armours of the possible enemies, too.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 02:31:20 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #320 on: July 24, 2014, 02:40:48 pm »
+2
Whatever bow Rambo used is the best.  Now stop this stupid thread.
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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #321 on: July 24, 2014, 02:45:38 pm »
0
(click to show/hide)
There is the Joker we know!

And why did this become some kind of historical discussion?
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Offline STR_aD_Sargon_eqv

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #322 on: July 24, 2014, 03:11:03 pm »
+2
(click to show/hide)

remove dose annoyin unkillable bundle of stickss
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Offline UnholyRolyPoly

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #323 on: July 24, 2014, 03:42:23 pm »
0
There's a reason "Agincourt" is the only stickied thread on this subforum. Also americans saying that is a bit much. I've seen just as much pop culture bullshit myths about the longbow in american media and education.

Yes because Americans are totally obsessed with their longbows lol. 


Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #324 on: July 24, 2014, 04:10:53 pm »
0

remove dose annoyin unkillable bundle of stickss

Wanna know whats REALLY annoying my old friendgitry? When you do a right swing on right side of your horse, I easily step past to your left side so your horse goes past without even coming close, and you desperatly swing your mouse over cause you realise I have tricked you YET AGAIN. But its ok, 1hcav mechanics and ACS forgive all mistakes: your swing continues, thru your horses head (Dont ask me WHY you cannot hit your own horse, you should totally be able to for 1hcav and HA/HX) and just grazes me at extreme end of your swing, which was right swing from right, so touches me on your left after you have already ridden past: Im running past you and you are riding away, so massive negative speed bonus from the angle of sword, but still 1hits me. THATS fucking gay. Stop whineing about anything else when you play easymode.
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #325 on: July 24, 2014, 04:15:05 pm »
-1
Historical tests had the result that a sharpened longbow can cut through a katana.

No really, I am no expert in bows, and I think this topic was derailed heavily, but my personal opinion is that I agree that the longbow probably was the "strongest" bow.

Since I said I have no clue what I am talking about my opinion isn't really of any value, but hear me out anyway:

I guess we agree that for a long shot with a bow you need a lot of energy. The more energy, the longer the shot. That's obvious.

Now if we look at the bows, I think we all agree that the English/Welsh longbows required the highest drawing power of all bows. I mean just look at the backs of the people who used them! And I think it is relatively safe to say that the average Briton was a bit taller and bigger than the average Turk/Arab, I think what is true nowadays wasn't different back then.

I also think it is nice to know with which techniqes the bows were made, be it recurve, composite or whatever. But in the end it is only determining how the bowyers dealt with the materials they had at their disposal. To stick with a similar example: you can lift an object with a wind either directly or by the use of a pulley. One way (with the pulley) feels easier than the other, because you don't have to put that much energy directly into lifting the object, it's rather spent in the "endurance" which you need to turn the wind a few times more than when lifting the object directly. I think it's "maximum power" vs. "endurance power". It's at least how it's said in German, I couldn't find a translation. BUT: once both objects are lifted they both have the same amount of power stored. So in the end I don't think that anything but the final draw weight matters. Every bow offers a certain resistance, and you have to overcome it to put energy into the arrow. The more resistance you have, the more energy can you put into the arrow. And it doesn't matter how that resistance is created, be it the material or the shape or both, in the end it all boils down to how much force you need to pull the string, since for every historic bow it has been done the same way. If there had been a compound bow I already wouldn't be so sure in my theory, since I can't really estimate the shift of power needed, but I think since the drawing length is limited a compound bow would be weaker than a normal bow of the same size, right?

So bottom line is: the Longbow had the higher drawing weight, which means it puts more energy into the arrow.

But here is the point: I think the arrow kicks in, too! My bet is that the arrows for longbows were much longer, thicker and thus heavier than those of the Turk bows. And not only proportionally, but even heavier than that! In Europe I think you had to deal much more with (plate-)armour than in the middle east, and the fighting was different in general. So the heavier arrows lead to the longbow perhaps not having the range of the Turk bow, but his arrows pack a much meaner punch than those of the Turk bow!

I think we can compare it with modern calibers a bit. The Turk bow is a 9mm gun, whereas the longbow is a .45 ACP. While the 9mm has a good range of about 200m or even more, the .45 ACP is so slow, it's subsonic ammunition by default! (In most cases, there is always some special cartridge). With tracer ammunition I could fire my gun and then watch the bullet travel to the target... But heaven forbid you get hit by a .45!

The .45 has a much bigger cartridge than the 9mm, but due to the heavier projectile it's slower and thus has the shorter reach. Still it hits much heavier than the 9mm.

And the same thing happens with the longbow. It was designed to be able to punch through plate armour on short range with the right tip, something which a man with a melee weapon often fails! And of course it was designed to engage the enemy as soon as possible, so they also tried to get the range as high as possible, but it was only secondary to the armour piercing aspect.

The Turk bow on the other hand had the main purpose of having the longest reach possible. In the middle east warfare was different than in Europe, it was more mobile, and they relied much more on ranged fighting than on melee, and in the end a lower percentage of the Saracen troops was armoured compared to European troops, and the armour usually was a bit weaker, as far as I know. (I know about the fact that they often wore cloth over their armour so the Europeans thought their majority was unarmoured, which is wrong). So the main objective was to be able to shoot before the enemy could shoot, and be it only for hitting their usually unarmoured horses first, depriving them of their mobility.

But since I think that in a direct fight of lightly armoured Muslims against heavily armoured Europeans the longer reach of the Turk bow would be negated by the lower stopping power, whereas the longbow has only slightly lower reach but is more deadly, I think the longbow is the more useful tool in general. Edit: but only because I had to consider the armours of the possible enemies, too.

Pretty much none of this is remotely accurate, fyi. In fact, it is mostly the opposite of all historical records and modern scientific testing.
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Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #326 on: July 24, 2014, 04:20:42 pm »
+1
Pretty much none of this is remotely accurate, fyi. In fact, it is mostly the opposite of all historical records and modern scientific testing.

Ok honey.
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Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #327 on: July 24, 2014, 04:26:35 pm »
+2
I saw the movie documentary, filmed in real time,300.  It was historically accurate.
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Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #328 on: July 24, 2014, 04:43:56 pm »
+1
My favourite part was when that black guys went 'Hu Hu Hu' and walked backwards into the shadows and went invisible apart from his big white teeth and eyes.

Classy stuff.

Yeah it's my fav too!

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Re: Horse archery is too strong
« Reply #329 on: July 24, 2014, 04:49:29 pm »
0
i think HA is realy cool and i love them, i wish i could be a HA