Suggestions for nerfing Horse Archers

[Palurgee]

Horse archers tend to piss off a lot of people and give them a hard time in the mod. Here are a few nerf suggestions to make horse archers less of a pain. I think at least 1 should be considered.

1.) Horse archery requires the rider to let go of the reins and put both hands on the bow. While cRPG doesn't have reins, the point remains that riding while shooting a bow is a difficult task. Suggestion: all horses require 1 additional riding skill if using a bow. This means you can still mount the horse, but the bow will be sheathed if you lack sufficient riding skill. If this is considered too punitive, a damage or accuracy reduction if riding skill is insufficient could be considered instead.

2.) In a similar vein as the previous suggestion, a rider is more unstable while not holding the reins. So, horse archers take greater damage when their bows are drawn (some low percentage, 33 or so).

3.) The angle at which the archer is facing away from the front of the horse effects the accuracy of the bow. So, if you are looking as far backwards as you can, your accuracy would be greatly reduced compared to when you are shooting directly forward. See this Wikipedia artcile on the Parthian shot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot

4.) Accuracy with a bow is reduced if not using a stirrup (see my stirrup suggestion here: http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/stirrups/new/#new

Please do not move to chamber of tears.

[Thryn]

Good suggestions, probably not the easiest thing to implement, all of them at once is too detrimental to class; I like 3 the best.

+1

inb4 chamburofteers

[Noodlenrice]

Great ways to approach HA problem instead of saying, "Remove the class."

[DumpsterNerd]

Great ways to approach HA problem instead of saying, "Remove the class."

Are we saying that's no longer on the table?  Cause I still think it should be on the table.


That being said, +1.  I like the suggestions 1 and 2 a lot.

[the real god emperor]

Only problem with archers or horse archers is that amount of arrows is ridicilously too many*, reducing arrow amount would be a realistic nerf to both archers and horse archers.

[Thryn]

Only problem with archers or horse archers is that amount of arrows is ridicilously too much, reducing arrow amount would be a realistic nerf to both archers and horse archers.

ive said this like 800 times

pls implement

[Herezy92]

Here another great idea made by Raylin :

As the title say, i got an idea to nerf horses archers without nerfing the archers on foot.
The idea is simple: adding a secondary mode to bow who are usable on horses.

In exemple, for the Nomad bow, i add a secondary mode and make the primary mode unusable on horse. If a player mount an horse, he was automaticly in secondary mode.

["nomad_bow",         "Nomad Bow",
[("nomad_bow",0),("nomad_bow_case", ixmesh_carry)],
itp_type_bow|itp_merchandise|itp_primary|itp_two_handed|itp_cant_use_on_horseback|itp_next_item_as_melee,
itcf_shoot_bow|itcf_carry_bowcase_left|itcf_show_holster_when_drawn,
101 ,
weight(2.4)|difficulty(2)|spd_rtng(62)|shoot_speed(48)|thrust_damage(21 ,  cut),imodbits_bow ],


["ha_nomad_bow",         "Nomad Bow",
[("nomad_bow",0),("nomad_bow_case", ixmesh_carry)],
itp_type_bow|itp_merchandise|itp_primary|itp_two_handed,
itcf_shoot_bow|itcf_carry_bowcase_left|itcf_show_holster_when_drawn,
90 ,
weight(2.4)|difficulty(4)|spd_rtng(55)|shoot_speed(40)|thrust_damage(18 ,  cut),imodbits_bow ],

In blue is the primary mode, usable only on foot.
In green is the secondary mode for ha with other item stats.
"itp_cant_use_on_horseback" set the primary mode unusable on horse.
"itp_next_item_as_melee" define the next item in the script as secondary mode.

Theses values are just for the exemple but with some testing and somes tweaks, i'm sure it can be good.
And it can also work for hx 

What people think about that ?

[CrazyCracka420]

Would it just be possible to drastically lower the maneuverability of a horse while drawing a bow? 

[Senni__Ti]

Here another great idea made by Raylin :

In blue is the primary mode, usable only on foot.
In green is the secondary mode for ha with other item stats.
"itp_cant_use_on_horseback" set the primary mode unusable on horse.
"itp_next_item_as_melee" define the next item in the script as secondary mode.

Theses values are just for the exemple but with some testing and somes tweaks, i'm sure it can be good.
And it can also work for hx 

What people think about that ?

Unfortunately this wouldn't work, the unusable on horseback on the primary would stop you from being able to put it in your hands, so you wouldn't be able to toggle to the secondary without dismounting :/.

Unless WSE added it, I don't think you can make people spawn with the secondary mode.

Would it just be possible to drastically lower the maneuverability of a horse while drawing a bow? 

You could do, but it'd be tricky.

(click to show/hide)

(ti_on_weapon_attack,1,0,[
(multiplayer_is_server),
(store_trigger_param_1, ":agent_no"),
(gt,":agent_no",0),
(agent_is_alive,":agent_no"),
(agent_get_horse,":horse_agent_no",":agent_no"),
(ge,":horse_agent_no",0),  #Trying to minimise CPU time ASAP, by limiting to cav quickly
(agent_get_wielded_item,":item_id",":agent_no"),
(item_get_type,":item_type",":item_id"),
(eq,":item_type",itp_type_bow),  #Now limiting to bow users
(agent_set_horse_speed_factor,":agent_no",90),  #Horse speed reduction to 90%
],
[
(multiplayer_is_server),
(store_trigger_param_1, ":agent_no"),
(gt,":agent_no",0),
(agent_is_alive,":agent_no"),
(agent_get_horse,":horse_agent_no",":agent_no"),
(ge,":horse_agent_no",0),
(agent_set_horse_speed_factor,":agent_no",100),  #Restored to 100% 1 second later
]),

This should work, but I'm not sure if it's triggered on arrow release, or as soon as you press LMB.

Could always swap the trigger for a LMB check, but that would require client side stuff, then passed onto serverside.

Example is all serverside. (would add some load to the CPU :/, may not be the best way to nerf HA.)

Would probably have some bugs, like if you/horse died between firing the arrow and the restore part happening. Next horse you get on could be stuck at 90%, regardless of weapon etc.

Could be fixed by removing the mounted checks, but I'm not sure if the horse speed factor would complain if you weren't on a horse. (bug testing!)

All assuming my code works... :p

[Huscarlton_Banks]

You could have some sort of agent animation check instead of ti_on_weapon_attack if you want the penalty to be during the draw, since that triggers on arrow release.

A temporary penalty to riding skill (1 or 2 points) would function better than agent_horse_speed_factor for maneuverability changes.

LMB check is a bit exploitable -- People could just reassign attack to something else.

[Senni__Ti]

You could have some sort of agent animation check instead of ti_on_weapon_attack if you want the penalty to be during the draw, since that triggers on arrow release.

A temporary penalty to riding skill (1 or 2 points) would function better than agent_horse_speed_factor for maneuverability changes.

LMB check is a bit exploitable -- People could just reassign attack to something else.

Yeah, another reason why I prefer the example I made :p.

If I did an animation check, then it would have to be a constant loop of checks. Not very good CPU wise. (not sure if there is WSE magic that could fix this problem)
Or did you mean in conjunction with the trigger I used?

EDIT:

Just remembered CRPG uses 1.14X so no speed modifiers
Would have to modify the riding skill then. (Unless there is a WSE equiv)

[San]

Nothing's really happening with WSE any time soon. With my limited knowledge, there could be a riding penalty based on character equipment and attributes. I have no idea about triggers that are possible without WSE, though.

[Thryn]

Ya know that one mod that makes horses move slower depending on the damage they take?

I say why not. For each quarter of health lost, the horse should lose 4 speed. (lol look at donkey speed)

[kooktar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8M00PRbI3c

Everyone seems to QQ about the balance of 1v1. This IS a team game. Horse archery is strong for a reason, it was OP in real life as it is in this game for all the reasons everyone is QQing about. Grab a shield, clump up as a group, stand next to pikers.... many ways a team can counter horse archery.

If you wanna stroke your epeen and complain about 1v1 balance, CMP should take down all servers but the official duel servers.

[MURDERTRON]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8M00PRbI3c

Everyone seems to QQ about the balance of 1v1. This IS a team game. Horse archery is strong for a reason, it was OP in real life as it is in this game for all the reasons everyone is QQing about. Grab a shield, clump up as a group, stand next to pikers.... many ways a team can counter horse archery.

If you wanna stroke your epeen and complain about 1v1 balance, CMP should take down all servers but the official duel servers.

By your logic getting  run over by a horse should kill you, but we all know what's realistic isn't always good for gameplay.

Shields and pikes are not counters.  The HA has no reason to get close to shielders nor pikers, so it's not a counter.  Perhaps deterrent, but not a counter.