[OCEU 5s] Tournament Rules

[bagge]

I think we do not need lower bracket.
I'm afraid it will not end otherwise.

Everything comes to an end!

[Molly]

It's nice to have the same kind of rules than in natives, but...


There's exciting matches and other. And it's just really a pain to fight 5 shielders :

3 melee shielders
1 1h/throwing shielder (with 3 throwing lances), but usually always going in melee with his trusty sword first. (counts as range, even if you spend 1/10th of each round map as a range)
1 1h-polearm /shielder heavy cav.

Well done for thoses teams choosing the best combination to fight on such maps such as "San'di boush", where kiting is plain impossible.

Maybe next tournament, a restriction on number of shielders ? 5 out of 5 is... slightly too much, even 4 out of 5 would be way better.
But well, i'm probably just mad at this map + this opponent + this nerf archers patch.^^ IT's like saying "screw you" to our 1 HA + 1 archer + 3 melee team. With, of course, HA and archer who can't melee (2 PS at MAX)

Thanks What Name for waiting for our 5th player though, much appreciated sportsmanship there.^^

I don't think that's needed.
If you come across a 5 shielder set-up, bring axes and those are gone in no time. Or get a Long Mauler - nothing scares a shielder more than 1 crushthrough hit...

Proper choice of equipment is part of the tactics.

[Bulzur]

I don't think that's needed.
If you come across a 5 shielder set-up, bring axes and those are gone in no time. Or get a Long Mauler - nothing scares a shielder more than 1 crushthrough hit...

Proper choice of equipment is part of the tactics.

It's not solely the 5 shielder set-up.

It's the fact there's a limitation to 3 melees ONLY, but thrower is an hybrid (just waste 6 points for a lucky throwing lance) and you'll have 4 melees. 3 melees vs 4 melees all goes down to skill you'll tell me, to quickly kill the ennemies, so as not to get outnumbered anymore. Try to do that vs shielders.

I still won't sunk as low as to bring 5 shielders for an open friendly tournament, just wanted to state the fact that, not like all our other matches, this one was just boring. And if you're really looking to organize a fun event, then you may just listen to my opinion as proper feedback. Instead of just :"part of tactic".

I was actually "this" close, to notifying it as an intentional rule-out. I remember when the question of "what counts as a range" was asked, it actually fell down to common sense, when the "anything with a range weapon is a range" could have been easily bypassed. IMO,  a range is not someone that will spend 9/10th of his time voluntarily in melee. That's a melee with some quick range backup. Not a range with some quick melee backup.

Also, crushthrough and "axes break shields fast" are pretty biaised statements.
Do you know how many hits are needed to break a shield ? That's not fast when you consider that the tournament rounds usually end in under 2min of melee fights at most.
Crushthrough ? Everybody brings that, but they're actually pretty easy to deal with.


And again, what i was pointing out, apart from the "i'm mad and bored / hate shielders", is the 5 man melee. In a tournament with class restriction, i believe thrower should take BOTH a melee AND a range slot, such as an HA takes both a range and a cav slot. Why ? Because it really does both with equal strength. Maybe that last sentence is actually the easier solution, in contrary to the "limit number of shields".

But thanks for the tips in "how to fight shielders".

So, tl.dr : Since limiting shields are out of the question, could a Thrower take both a melee AND a range slot ?

[bagge]

I somewhat agree, having a limit on infantry is experimental for this tournament. The only restrictment needed is heavy cavalry imo.

[darmaster]

and armors

[Bulzur]

For all the equipment restriction, what about allowing people a certain amount of gold per 5man team (maybe only for armors+horses, else armor+weapons+horses), that way, if you want to have a plated knight on his heavy horse, you'll have to get some cheap equipment for the rest of the team, to balance it out ?

This limit shouldn't be so low as to "force" people to use shitty gear, but should just exist to prevent über armor and über horse.
And nothing prevents you from going full peasant mod, just for the thrill and the challenge.

[Molly]

It's not solely the 5 shielder set-up.

It's the fact there's a limitation to 3 melees ONLY, but thrower is an hybrid (just waste 6 points for a lucky throwing lance) and you'll have 4 melees. 3 melees vs 4 melees all goes down to skill you'll tell me, to quickly kill the ennemies, so as not to get outnumbered anymore. Try to do that vs shielders.

I still won't sunk as low as to bring 5 shielders for an open friendly tournament, just wanted to state the fact that, not like all our other matches, this one was just boring. And if you're really looking to organize a fun event, then you may just listen to my opinion as proper feedback. Instead of just :"part of tactic".

I was actually "this" close, to notifying it as an intentional rule-out. I remember when the question of "what counts as a range" was asked, it actually fell down to common sense, when the "anything with a range weapon is a range" could have been easily bypassed. IMO,  a range is not someone that will spend 9/10th of his time voluntarily in melee. That's a melee with some quick range backup. Not a range with some quick melee backup.

Also, crushthrough and "axes break shields fast" are pretty biaised statements.
Do you know how many hits are needed to break a shield ? That's not fast when you consider that the tournament rounds usually end in under 2min of melee fights at most.
Crushthrough ? Everybody brings that, but they're actually pretty easy to deal with.


And again, what i was pointing out, apart from the "i'm mad and bored / hate shielders", is the 5 man melee. In a tournament with class restriction, i believe thrower should take BOTH a melee AND a range slot, such as an HA takes both a range and a cav slot. Why ? Because it really does both with equal strength. Maybe that last sentence is actually the easier solution, in contrary to the "limit number of shields".

But thanks for the tips in "how to fight shielders".

So, tl.dr : Since limiting shields are out of the question, could a Thrower take both a melee AND a range slot ?

Jesus, why so aggressive.

And with a big axe a few hits break shields. Glad I could point that out for you. Always happy to help.

What made you think that I didn't take it as proper feedback? I merely happen to not agree with you.
Dumping 6 skill points into PT is kinda a big deal with a STF character as a shielder with already skill points in shield skill. This already limits the capabilities for the thrower/melee. Every kind of hybrid limits melee capabilities.

Throwing - common knowledge again - is very, very limited compared to every other ranged class in the game. Especially when played as sidearm. Ammo is limited, range is limited, accuracy is limited. And again, as part of an hybrid it really is down to luck to hit an aware opponent with the limited wpf you can dump in there.

Compared to HA which can still bump and shoot with real equal strength, a throwing melee hybrid is clearly at a disadvantage. Not to mention that even without PS a HA with a 1h sword can deal quite an amount of damage from horseback due to speed bonus. If the player is capable of doing that is different question.

Besides, this is a competitive tournament. It's supposed to be fun ofc but the environment is a competitive one. I dislike everything that limits the freedom of choice inside the team. It's already hard enough to get a proper amount of team together to even get it running properly.
Limiting the freedom even more, forcing people into playing classes they don't like/don't wanna play will eventually lower the team numbers even more.

[Bulzur]

Throwing - common knowledge again - is very, very limited compared to every other ranged class in the game. Especially when played as sidearm. Ammo is limited, range is limited, accuracy is limited. And again, as part of an hybrid it really is down to luck to hit an aware opponent with the limited wpf you can dump in there.

When did i compare throwing to other range ? I'm saying someone clearly used a thrower (range slot) to play an additional melee and bypass the 3 max melee rule. How wasn't that clear enough for you ?

Dumping 6 skill points into PT is kinda a big deal with a STF character as a shielder with already skill points in shield skill. This already limits the capabilities for the thrower/melee. Every kind of hybrid limits melee capabilities.

Okay, i guess i'm just totally wrong and this possible build is just out of the question and isn't at all considered as range nor as a decent melee :

(click to show/hide)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 53

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 0
    Power Strike: 6
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 6
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 6
    Weapon Master: 6

    One Handed: 155
    Two Handed: 24
    Polearm: 24
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1

What is 6 skill points ? 3 Attributes ? I'll trade you thoses 6 PT for 3 STR AND 1 PS. Is the 6 PS build completely useless against the 7 PS build (with 3 more hp) ? Is it remotely inferior ? Skillwise, does it make a big difference ? I don't think so.

If i haven't forgotten, throwing wpf is needed for accuracy, throw time, and to pick it back up. But to use it when you spawned with it, no ? If it's the case, i'm sorry, and indeed, instead of having  155 in 1h, i guess he'll only have around 100 ? Clearly a cripple.
Who am i to think for even a second that someone with 3 throwing lances, a shield, and a 1h sword, never seen picking back up his throwing lances, and always rushing in melee, is just trying to be a melee character to ensure a number advantage ?


I must just be agressive, since none of that makes even sense. Guess we just disagree on how getting throwing lances doesn't mean you're so gimped in melee... It actually reminds me of the time i was followed by Umbra as a thrower, he missed me couple of times, then hit me once. And i was like "damn", he'll pick back his ammo and finish me off. What was my surprise when i saw he didn't even bother picking it up, but instead chased me for the whole round, never reaching me. Guess he must have missed noticing it.


Sorry for yelling it out (typing a lot, and a big wall of text is considered disagreeing and being agressive, it seems), but you just never were concerned with the point i raised. I wasn't discussing about the effectiveness of throwers as a range (though they are very good range hunters with a proper build). But about the "rules".

(click to show/hide)

It doesn't matter that i still disagree with you and throwers being very, very limited, since, especially at low pop server, an hybrid thrower/1h or 2h is king.
And i'm amazed you're considering a loss of 6 skill points a "gimped build".

I'll read your next answer, if you ever do, but won't charge this topic with further nonsense from me, since that's what you take it for.
I'm just sorry for thinking for even one second that your rules could have been broken by someone trying to bypass them, to take advantage of the "not-so-clear" range tag.


And to finish with a "good" note, i totally agree with you on this point :

I dislike everything that limits the freedom of choice inside the team. It's already hard enough to get a proper amount of team together to even get it running properly.
Limiting the freedom even more, forcing people into playing classes they don't like/don't wanna play will eventually lower the team numbers even more.

This is essential for tournaments. But i don't see how limiting a number of shields per team to 4 (instead of the current 5) is limiting the freedom of choice inside an 8 man team. I can give you plenty of combinations with that set-up, and actually only ONE, with 5 shields. So i guess refusing one combination, when hundreds exists, is limiting drastically the freedom of choice.
And nobody is forcing people into playing classes they don't like/don't wanna play. It's an 8 man team, if you only recruited dedicated 2handers, then are you going to complain how the rules forces your member to play class they don't like ? No. You recruit your team based on the rules, and all your teammembers can play the way they like and want to play.




Back to the main point, keeping all thoses rules for the first stage is a given. Should they evolve for the brackets events ? Further limitations of some kind : gold, max-armor, max-horse ? I'm totally in favor of that (or even for latter tournaments), since rules that "allow" everything actually forces competitive team to use the strongest combination : heavy cav, heavy armor on all infantry (not super heavy, but definitely not medium armors). You can argue that it's your choice to use whatever armor you feel like it, but you can't deny that if i use a nomad robe, i'll be at a definite disadvantage against anyone with the same build but a medium-heavy armor. Especially true for melees.
You're the advocate of freedom, but the rules forces you to use particular equipment if you want your team to be challenging. Not all equipment are as effective as others, and the most effective should be restricted, imo.



Edited following Molly's reply :
Sorry if i sounded agressive. And i was probably a bit, since it felt like the other team cheated this out, since we believed 4 melees were against the rules, and yet that's how they played. Having fun with your team is a given. Playing against wannabee-cheaters isn't. But even if this point is still unclear, rest assured that we, LastMinute, will always stick to a max of 3 melee rules. Even our HA doesn't have a melee weapon. And i purposefully use shitty armor, to make sure i die easily, especially in melee. And, i believe jtobiasm was watching this particular match, though he didn't talk much, so maybe he'll share a different version altogether than mine. Sorry again for being agressive because we felt we had been cheated. I should maybe have taken it as a gentleman and brush it off my shoulder, but alas, i'm but a human.
I still appreciate you though. :S Sorry for all this, since it seems it does ruin the image you had of me, if you even had one.
And i'm also sorry Bagge didn't allow you a respec. We would have allowed it, but he didn't even ask us our opinions. And i didn't really understood what it was at the moment. Don't know why i'm saying it now, but since i doubt you'll read anything from me without a-priori again...

[Molly]

Guess I am just silly for actually playing in a team with people I have fun and a good time with.

Let me put it this way:

We - the Event Management - are thankful for your feedback and I promise you that we will discuss it internally.

I can not promise you anything other that we will keep it in mind and consider everything you wrote.

(click to show/hide)

I still think that you write in a rather aggressive tone which isn't really appropriate for the matter.

[jtobiasm]

i believe jtobiasm was watching this particular match, though he didn't talk much, so maybe he'll share a different version altogether than mine.

I only watched the first 3 rounds because I knew the match was lost (for you) just because of the classes on both teams. On a different map, you could of easily of won but sandi is a more melee sided map.

One thing i do agree on though in future tournaments is lowering the armour but the main problem would be that people would complain the ranged would be too strong (but if you're stupid enough to get shot, that's your own problem).   

In my personal opinion, tournaments like these should be competitive. We have tutens tournaments for fun events. The one thing I love about native warband and other games such as COD4 and CS, teamwork is everything and everyone is on a level playing field - the best team does in fact win. I wish there was a way to have no looms in the tourney, the gap between having looms and not is too big.

Edit: This is just the first tourney and a testing period for future ones, I'm 100% sure the events team will tweak and improve the rules which don't work.

[T_Grellenort]

Everything comes to an end!

Yes, but sometimes without winner 

Change the rules of battle during the tournament is not very good, with no reason. Only because of QQ some people who lose.

(click to show/hide)

The only restrictment needed is heavy cavalry imo.

You're so afraid of me?   

[Molly]

[...]
Edited following Molly's reply :
[...]Don't know why i'm saying it now, but since i doubt you'll read anything from me without a-priori again...

There is no reason to believe that.
I always read everything. I took the tone of your posts as a sign of upset, not necessarily as a personal attack. From what I know, you're a friendly and calm guy. No worries.

jtobi raises a good point:
This tournament is clearly oriented towards competition. Especially considering the high prize pool. That includes using the rule set to its maximum in its current state.
For now, please do not gimp yourself over the interpretation of the rules. Use the rules how they are right now. Clear violations will be punished.
We were already discussing the matter yesterday evening and we will continue looking into it.

[bagge]

Yes, but sometimes without winner 

Change the rules of battle during the tournament is not very good, with no reason. Only because of QQ some people who lose.

We will not change the rules regarding classes during this tournament.

[Spleen]

Compared to HA which can still bump and shoot with real equal strength, a throwing melee hybrid is clearly at a disadvantage. Not to mention that even without PS a HA with a 1h sword can deal quite an amount of damage from horseback due to speed bonus. If the player is capable of doing that is different question.

shoot with equal strength once accuracy is fixed  couldnt really use any speedbonus (for ranged shots that is) as I had to slow down to hit anything...
also, playing HA on lvl 30 is shitty enough, I dont have any spare points to waste on PS

but yeah like bulzur said: definitely the worst possible map for our team roster

[Molly]

[...]
but yeah like bulzur said: definitely the worst possible map for our team roster

Playing a bad map for the roster is not a proper argument for a rule change tho.
The map before your team wasted us cuz we couldn't handle the mobility of you as HA and Bulzur as standard archer. It was a bad map for us with flags spawning away from cover most of the time.

The map is announced early on. Get on EU8 when it's free, load up the map, fly through it as spectator and figure out a roster that would work...
Preparation is part of the competition imho. Hence my comment "Switch to axes when shielder dominate." Adapt to the maps and the enemies.