Author Topic: Please can we get old 1h right swing back  (Read 3003 times)

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Offline Mr.K.

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2014, 02:17:36 pm »
+1
cav

Arabian Cavalry Sword (mounted)       9,189,663  11.60%
Nordic Champion's Sword (mounted)     1,924,486  2.43% 
Knightly Arming Sword (mounted)       1,089,850  1.38% 

Lance (mounted)                    8,269,427  12.61%
Heavy Lance (mounted)              4,569,338  6.97% 
Great Lance (mounted)              2,094,177  3.19% 

There's a lot more onehanders than polearms. Fact.

Almost as many as two-handers, if the skill levels are similar. However I suspect the average skill level of a shielder is lower meaning that there could actually be more one-handers than two-handers. And that's on foot. With my 2H thrower I have hard time finding a 2H weapon on the ground when I'm out of jarids, one-handers on the other hand are plentiful. At least that's what it feels like.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 02:22:00 pm by Mr.K. »

Offline Sniger

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2014, 02:25:17 pm »
0
i dunno what them numbers mean, me stupid. kinda missing your point i think, what is it i need to look at?

meh, w/e, not gonna play shielder anyway, it sucks, not gonna play my toon "as the devs want it to be played" fuck that. having loads of fun with throwing lances: so many targets, who to pick, who to pick?!

troll game is troll

Offline Grumbs

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2014, 02:25:45 pm »
+2
Seems reasonable to me that 1 handers don't outreach anyone, but I don't see much difference with the right swing personally apart from it being better in most ways to me. I didn't have any particularly well honed techniques developed over years tho like some. I think if you used the new right swing as much as the old one you would like the new one a lot more

I do see a bit of an issue with blurring the lines between the classes and the swings though like has been happening. Why can't 1 handers be super short range and low damage like they used to be? Why can't poles have amazing stabs? Why can't 2 handers have good stabs and duelling ability? If they have their own inbuilt weaknesses and strengths its OK for them to be quite different. You just have to balance so they can play to their strengths and minimise weaknesses by the way they play. There has been a huge push to make 1 handers stand up to 2 handers by mimicking things like crazy stabs, long range etc when its not necessary if they have their own different strengths. Poles should have amazing stabs if they only have 1 or 2 direction attacks etc
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Offline Sniger

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2014, 02:27:21 pm »
-1
crpg is devs vs. players. when players start to do well: NERFTIME

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Offline Corsair831

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2014, 03:25:52 pm »
+1
Seems reasonable to me that 1 handers don't outreach anyone, but I don't see much difference with the right swing personally apart from it being better in most ways to me. I didn't have any particularly well honed techniques developed over years tho like some. I think if you used the new right swing as much as the old one you would like the new one a lot more

I do see a bit of an issue with blurring the lines between the classes and the swings though like has been happening. Why can't 1 handers be super short range and low damage like they used to be? Why can't poles have amazing stabs? Why can't 2 handers have good stabs and duelling ability? If they have their own inbuilt weaknesses and strengths its OK for them to be quite different. You just have to balance so they can play to their strengths and minimise weaknesses by the way they play. There has been a huge push to make 1 handers stand up to 2 handers by mimicking things like crazy stabs, long range etc when its not necessary if they have their own different strengths. Poles should have amazing stabs if they only have 1 or 2 direction attacks etc

that's the point

i know exactly how to use the new 1h right swing; you take a very high damaging weapon/high power strike and spam the right swing and abuse the broken sweet spots

the point is, i don't think crpg needs yet another nooby attack which is more focussed on spam and trying to get lucky, than it is focussed on skill. the old right swing was completely about timing; and it could be used (if you were very practised and had a very good sense of the swing reach) to outrange people with longer weapons and very nicely for target switching.

the new attack is purely focussed on spamming to abuse the sweetspot. it's like we've just had a skill mechanic removed and a spam mechanic implemented. y u do this devs, y u do this.

edit: as for your point about each class performing a more specific role, the more you reduce a classes ability to perform well against other classes, the more you pigeon hole that class, the more you make the game into a rock paper scissors game, and the more you reduce the skill ceiling of the game.

each class should have a reasonable ability to fight against other classes IMO, and reducing the range of the 1h swing like this massively reduces it's ability to fight against half the classes in the game.

this includes

  • cav riding by, can't right swing them anymore
  • polearm users, can't outreach them anymore
  • 2h users, can't outreach them anymore
  • anyone in a melee with 4 or more people, can't target switch any more
  • archers, before the change the only way to stop an archer shooting around your shield was to facehug and then right swing them, i've tried this dozens and dozens of times since the 1h rightswing change, it simply doesn't work anymore, archers can now easily shoot around your shield
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:31:35 pm by Corsair831 »
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2014, 04:03:05 pm »
+1
I just played some with a 95 reach onehander, and i could range control pretty good with rightswing, i could also hit cav easily with it.
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Offline Jarlek

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2014, 04:06:44 pm »
+1
Arabian Cavalry Sword (mounted)       9,189,663  11.60%
Nordic Champion's Sword (mounted)     1,924,486  2.43% 
Knightly Arming Sword (mounted)       1,089,850  1.38% 

Lance (mounted)                    8,269,427  12.61%
Heavy Lance (mounted)              4,569,338  6.97% 
Great Lance (mounted)              2,094,177  3.19% 

There's a lot more onehanders than polearms. Fact.

Almost as many as two-handers, if the skill levels are similar. However I suspect the average skill level of a shielder is lower meaning that there could actually be more one-handers than two-handers. And that's on foot. With my 2H thrower I have hard time finding a 2H weapon on the ground when I'm out of jarids, one-handers on the other hand are plentiful. At least that's what it feels like.
That's because all the 1handers died to the superskilled masterace 2handers.

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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2014, 07:09:39 pm »
+7
I have been reading all of these threads closely. Last night, I made a third revision (the second hadn't even gone live yet) to the right swing, based on the feedback found in these threads as well as my own perception in game. While I understand your reasoning, I have to say I still believe you're overreacting due to the fact that, with the right camera orientation, the new animation has the longest effective reach out of any of the 1h right swing animations.
 
How is this figured? Easy, weapon length is a static thing that can only be changed by altering the weapon’s Length stat. Since none of the 1h weapons have had their length stat altered, that means effective reach is being decided by orientation, and arm extension. So, weapon length is irrelevant for figuring out the effective length change, just so long as you’re using the same weapon in your comparisons. With that being said, here are images comparing effective lengths.

(click to show/hide)
The longer one you see there, is the new right-to-left animation (the one on the servers right now). This isn't some camera trick, this is what happens when you look for effective length. That is, when you take Geometry into consideration. Just because something is farther forward, doesn't mean it's further away from your point of reference. Meaning, when you're able to turn your camera, the new animation will have significantly longer reach.

(click to show/hide)
Before going further, you should keep in mind that Warband blends between frames. Here are two pictures just to reinforce the point that when the weapon is directly in front, the length is almost identical(if not actually identical).

Still, as explained in another thread, its at the natural(facing your opponent) 2 o'clock/3 o'clock position where the old swing will have longer reach. To counter this, I have lowered the angle of the sword at this frame, as well as slightly increased the speed of the swing. It will still be the slowest swing, but will make-up for the fact that the older swing was better for hitting (earlier, at the 2-3 o'clock positions). Effective speed should be much, much more similar after the next patch.
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Offline Corsair831

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2014, 07:25:31 pm »
0
ok thanks for the update tydeus, when my internet is working properly again i will test it out, if indeed it is the same length there may not be a problem

remember however it is not only to do with the length of the swing but the arc as well, the old swing was very long ranged with a huge arc, the new one not so much; the decreased arc makes it significantly harder to fight archers, crossbows, throwers etc etc as a shielder

we will see how it pans out when your new animation is released anyway

if it doesn't work out well though, please keep an open mind to reverting it to the old animation, as you can see there is a lot of popular support for this.

regards, corsair
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Offline BaleOhay

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2014, 02:31:37 am »
+1
I stopped playing my one hander shield after the original right swing update. I did not like the change and with an iberian I felt I was missing things that I normally could hit with it. Bale is gen 24 (many of them 32 plus retires) so I believe I have enough experience to have an educated opinion.

Ty has this new swing gone into place yet? I will dust off Ohay and see what I think


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Offline Artyem

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2014, 02:38:33 am »
+2
Are there any changes planned for other animations? 
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Offline Sniger

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2014, 08:43:23 am »
+1
remember however it is not only to do with the length of the swing but the arc as well, the old swing was very long ranged with a huge arc, the new one not so much; the decreased arc makes it significantly harder to fight archers, crossbows, throwers etc etc as a shielder

not to meantion when fighting elevated. old right swing was nice horizontal. so... yeah...

the arc
horizontal attack

before we had vertical, diagonal and horizontal. now we have vertical and diagonal. :(
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 08:46:57 am by Sniger »

Offline Teeth

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2014, 10:06:13 am »
+3
6000 hours of rightswing practice and you were wrong about the reach of the new animation, good duel.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2014, 01:39:45 pm »
0
I stopped playing my one hander shield after the original right swing update. I did not like the change and with an iberian I felt I was missing things that I normally could hit with it. Bale is gen 24 (many of them 32 plus retires) so I believe I have enough experience to have an educated opinion.

Ty has this new swing gone into place yet? I will dust off Ohay and see what I think
The screenshots compare what you're calling the first revision, with the version that has been on the servers for about a year now, ever since my first change.
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Offline Corsair831

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Re: Please can we get old 1h right swing back
« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2014, 02:01:41 pm »
-1
6000 hours of rightswing practice and you were wrong about the reach of the new animation, good duel.

i wasn't wrong, and you still suck when you're not armour crutching with an instant stabbing weapon, nab

edit: also, notice it's all the experienced 1h shielders who are against the new rightswing, and all of the proponents of it are 2h heros / pike heros / archers / cav
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