Poll

Do you want to see realistic version of cRPG?

Yes, and I will play it.
6 (18.2%)
Yes, and I will participate in making it's concept.
4 (12.1%)
I don't care.
10 (30.3%)
I am against that, will stay my arguemnts why.
13 (39.4%)

Total Members Voted: 33

Author Topic: Realistic version of balance  (Read 3762 times)

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Offline Johammeth

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 10:17:27 pm »
+1
I agree wholeheartedly, and would like to add that once a week players should be obliged to play a Farmville-style minigame where they clip their characters fingernails, or suffer a penalty to WPF (because in real life, it's pretty awkward to have fingernails that are too long).
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Offline Adamar

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 10:39:30 pm »
0
Or just rank up and fight as a team as you'd expect from a medieval war game.

Offline Baskakov_Dima

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2014, 10:49:49 pm »
0
It would be a different kind of balance. The game is stuck in an unending spiral of nerfs and tears because sertain concepts where introduced wrong to begin with. You're afraid of the change because you think you might lose something, but each class would be winning a lot too if we where all willing to learn new things with the same engine.
WERE
For some reason, it's a common mistake here.

But you are actually right. It will just be a different kind of balance.

I agree wholeheartedly, and would like to add that once a week players should be obliged to play a Farmville-style minigame where they clip their characters fingernails, or suffer a penalty to WPF (because in real life, it's pretty awkward to have fingernails that are too long).

such joke
much funny
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 04:28:07 pm by Baskakov_Dima »

Offline WITCHCRAFT

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2014, 04:54:31 pm »
+1
And if noone wants to do that, I can - I study history in Moscow State University, and I do fencing in real life.

I meant the actual coding, testing, rebalancing etc. of the entire game. Not just items. Not just crpg things. M&B engine from the ground up. Doing this would require a ton of time. crpg patches would grind to a halt. Melee: Battlegrounds would have to be cancelled. The devs aren't going to do it. You're basically saying "I'm the ideas guy, I'll just give you a list of fighting techniques and facts to keep in mind while you make a videogame for me."
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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2014, 08:54:32 pm »
0
Gameplay > Realism

(click to show/hide)
By the way, if you want an ultra-"realism" game - next time you get wounded, stop playing for 6 months. Next time you die, throw your PC out the window and build another one.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be realistic aspects to the game, it's just that (I know you have all earned degrees in medieval combat) many of these "realism" posts are redundant to say the least.

Add this thread to the graveyard.

Edit: If you only have a problem with some of the weapon statistics Dima, I understand. "Realism" is an often overused and oddly interpreted word to use when describing what it is that you want to change about the game.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 09:19:39 pm by anotherGhost »
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2014, 09:19:23 pm »
0
Its not all nerfs now, throwing got buffed, a bunch of polearms got 1 more speed etc.

 And what are the changes that are needed to make this game more realistic then?
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Offline Adamar

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2014, 04:19:25 am »
0
looking at it as another game.

cav - damage upon dehorsing dependent on speed of horse with possible death,  possibility to outright kill someone by ridding them down just right, horses only rear by weapon if they move on lower speeds(otherwise massive damage), horses will hardly ever stop by bumping into ppl, dead horses do damage, headshots on unprotected horses kill them...

inf- crouching!, realistic shield forcefield, plate/partial plate negates most arrows exept bodkins at short ranges, swing damage does very little damage, if at all against full plate(most helmets count as plate) realistic weight of armor, shields are considerable more durable, easy to use(speed) and block everything within its forcefield polearms cannot be sheathed, crushthrough formula for all weapons (PS vs weapon weights)...

ranged- realistic weight, realistic hard limit on accuracy & damage for every bow(less for xbows than bows), most armor does not lower accuracy, drawing speed dependent only on powerdraw(bows & xbows), throwing is devastating against non plate, very limited throwing projectiles & throwing doesn't require much wpf overall, walking sideways while trowing kills accuracy...

battlemap- flag system introduced for tactical movement/ commanders will have small flags above their banners, a flag for each class commander, command is decided either by devs < ammount of successfully commanded battles < voting, to ensure that a capable commander is always present & anyone gets a shot at it if voted on, most maps openfield, in fact battlemap shouldn't be like siege in any way, CLASS BALANCE!

Perhaps a new AI training camp would be necessary to explain each class & weapon's purpose, and teach the battlefield basics so ppl are prepared, and know what's expected.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 04:23:33 am by Adamar »

Offline Macropus

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2014, 09:42:33 am »
0
And if we doubt in something, we test it in real life.
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2014, 11:49:05 am »
+2
Actually, this idea is a good idea but it is bound to fail for cRPG. Because of one reason: The community.

cRPG has evolved a lot. Those who didn't like the changes stopped playing it and only the ones that liked the gameplay did stay. Others probably played other mods or games. That being said, the cRPG community won't welcome such a radical change while the ones playing other games will probably welcome it with open arms. There are always a few exceptions of course. Some examples are the ones agreeing with the suggestion here including me.


So I'd rather encourage everyone agreeing to the suggestion here to continue the realism pursuit in another mod. There are two mods that will suit it more than a realistic gameplay that I know of and both were suffering from low number of players.

-Battle for Europe (at least it is trying to evolve into being a realistic mod and it features a class/level system similar to crpg)
-Vikingr (it's nordic themed native with the most realism I've ever seen)

So my suggestion is. Gather up, stop playing cRPG and stop changing it to a game where the majority of it's community won't like it and start playing those mods.
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2014, 01:33:09 pm »
0
cRPG devs are working on a whole new game. Other people only have so much spare time to balance one version of the game, let alone 2 and implementing whole new systems for the other version

Best to look at another mod or another game if you want realism. cRPG takes realism secondarily to balance, which the playerbase seems to prefer
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2014, 01:36:10 pm »
0
ignore this message...
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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2014, 04:50:01 pm »
0
looking at it as another game.

cav - damage upon dehorsing dependent on speed of horse with possible death,  possibility to outright kill someone by ridding them down just right, horses only rear by weapon if they move on lower speeds(otherwise massive damage), horses will hardly ever stop by bumping into ppl, dead horses do damage, headshots on unprotected horses kill them...

inf- crouching!, realistic shield forcefield, plate/partial plate negates most arrows exept bodkins at short ranges, swing damage does very little damage, if at all against full plate(most helmets count as plate) realistic weight of armor, shields are considerable more durable, easy to use(speed) and block everything within its forcefield polearms cannot be sheathed, crushthrough formula for all weapons (PS vs weapon weights)...

ranged- realistic weight, realistic hard limit on accuracy & damage for every bow(less for xbows than bows), most armor does not lower accuracy, drawing speed dependent only on powerdraw(bows & xbows), throwing is devastating against non plate, very limited throwing projectiles & throwing doesn't require much wpf overall, walking sideways while trowing kills accuracy...

battlemap- flag system introduced for tactical movement/ commanders will have small flags above their banners, a flag for each class commander, command is decided either by devs < ammount of successfully commanded battles < voting, to ensure that a capable commander is always present & anyone gets a shot at it if voted on, most maps openfield, in fact battlemap shouldn't be like siege in any way, CLASS BALANCE!

Perhaps a new AI training camp would be necessary to explain each class & weapon's purpose, and teach the battlefield basics so ppl are prepared, and know what's expected.

Sounds like cav would be complete garbage, 2h + plate would be insanely good and ranged would destroy anything without plate, while wearing plate themselves (unless they have really shit accuracy then people just wouldnt play it). Shielders without forcefield would get shot in the feet or bumped to death. Crushthrough on every weapon, there goes manual blocking being usefull and so everyone will spam.

Commanders dont really work, atleast barely ever in crpg. You can only do so much with a bunch of randomers, such as a shieldwall but those are shit in crpg and would probably stink even more in this.
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Offline Baskakov_Dima

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 05:12:15 pm »
0
I meant the actual coding, testing, rebalancing etc. of the entire game. Not just items. Not just crpg things. M&B engine from the ground up. Doing this would require a ton of time. crpg patches would grind to a halt. Melee: Battlegrounds would have to be cancelled. The devs aren't going to do it. You're basically saying "I'm the ideas guy, I'll just give you a list of fighting techniques and facts to keep in mind while you make a videogame for me."

It is not like "Lol go and make videogame for me". It is like "I'm the ideas guy, I'll use your code, change the items' stats, add one animation, and rebalance the combat system totally by that. But the problem is, I am not allowed to use your assets without permission." And, actually, not only for me - a lot of people lack realism in cRPG.

Gameplay > Realism

(click to show/hide)
By the way, if you want an ultra-"realism" game - next time you get wounded, stop playing for 6 months. Next time you die, throw your PC out the window and build another one.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be realistic aspects to the game, it's just that (I know you have all earned degrees in medieval combat) many of these "realism" posts are redundant to say the least.

Add this thread to the graveyard.

Edit: If you only have a problem with some of the weapon statistics Dima, I understand. "Realism" is an often overused and oddly interpreted word to use when describing what it is that you want to change about the game.

I do LARP combat. It is fun, sometimes more fun than M&B, sometimes less. But you can't simulate some things in real life. You, of course, can, but it is very hard, sometimes dangerous.

1) Horses. You can only use them for transport in real life, because in real life you can one-hit your friend RPing your opponent with an (un)lucky horse bump or attack while galloping. You will just crush his bones, like you do it with a mace.
2) Ranged. We have to use very light bows, because we could kill each other otherwise. The arrows don't fly far, they are very slow and hard to aim. Ranged are only effective in very close range. You can't simulate (non)penetration, because you have to protect yourself as good as possible.
3) Shields. You can't crush them, because one shield costs like $100. Too expensive to throw away several per week, given that there are already a lot of things that break.
4) Huge armies. When big LARP events happen, they are dangerous, because people hit very strongly and don't think about people they hit. Some people also bring stronger weapons than allowed, like heavier swords, stronger bows etc. It is also very hard and expensive to host such events, and you need much better armour for them, that is also very expensive.

Etc., etc.

The bonus of going LARP or cRPG is that you don't really die, as you would do in a real army, you don't have to heal wounds, don't suffer from bloody flux etc.
If you make something pretending to be a real life balance, it is often unrealistic at all. For example, you have only one way to thrust in M&B, IRL you have a lot of them. You should balance realism and arcade if you want a good game. cRPG item balancers forgot about realism, every topic with something like "Do that stats edit, it is realistic" will go the realism discussion area and be left there forever.

As for me, "realistic" game is a game that looks similar to real life, and that doesn't make me cry "LOL HOW???//" too often. That is actually why any "realistic" game about fencing becomes unrealistic when some pros learn it's mechanics too good and use glitches of engine. In Chivalry, for example, every fight with noobs only will look realistic, and any fight with pros only will look like a lot of teleports, magic etc. So is it in M&B, any pro will just outspam a noob and onehit him by turning in the same direction in which he moves his blade.

And item stats is not the only thing I need. I also need some animations to be changed/edited, but I can learn to do it myself. The only thing I want from cRPG is it's code added to Warband.

Its not all nerfs now, throwing got buffed, a bunch of polearms got 1 more speed etc.

 And what are the changes that are needed to make this game more realistic then?

For example, boosting plate, so it really does protect from projectiles and swings, nerfing some weapons like knife (that penetrate plate now), nerfing cutting damage against armour (possible in cRPG), adding upper thrusts for polearms etc. The list of changes will be discussed after devs say something.

Although i agree with Ronin, the playerbase prefers it because anyone who didnt will have stopped playing here long ago.

If such a version appears, a lot of people can go and play it. There are not so a lot of mods that are still supported for now.

Offline Adamar

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 05:14:05 pm »
0
Sounds like cav would be complete garbage, 2h + plate would be insanely good and ranged would destroy anything without plate, while wearing plate themselves (unless they have really shit accuracy then people just wouldnt play it). Shielders without forcefield would get shot in the feet or bumped to death. Crushthrough on every weapon, there goes manual blocking being usefull and so everyone will spam.

Commanders dont really work, atleast barely ever in crpg. You can only do so much with a bunch of randomers, such as a shieldwall but those are shit in crpg and would probably stink even more in this.

You're not taking the all thing together into consideration, stop looking at CRPG as a model.

Cav wouldn't be garbage, as it would be able to kill people by ridding over them, this would be an asset in mass charges. The point behind these changes would be to use them in large groups rather than individual fights, yet one could still dodge horses in 1 vs 1 scenarios. 2h wouldn't be insanely good, because swing damage would be realistically inefficient against armor, and they'd still get killed by arbalests, and any of the many kinds of armor damaging weapons that are barely used in crgg because their realistic purpose is overshadowed by the fantasy greatswords here. Shielders without forcefield would only be shot in the feet if someone in the front lines forgot to crouch to cover their all bodies, hence the mechanic, or they could just wear plate boots in a partial plate set. Crushthrough in every weapon would have to be applied realistically, which is why I mentioned a crushthrough formula, since people still blocked in real life. Things like daggers would be able to block now, but they'd still be worthless against two handed weapons. I should have been specific about ranged, their accuracy would remain unaffected by most armor, except the best, and they'd not destroy everything without plate, anyone not wearing plate would be carrying a shield, unless they were ranged themselves or horses. someone without any kind of decent protection wouldn't last long in the battlefield, as it should be, though shield formations would still make any ranged attacks useless, and any peasant hiding behind would be safe.

There would be no randomers in a game that demands teamplay for victory(not for long), and I mentioned a training camp to explain the basics to everyone.

What Im proposing is a next gen in the franchise, what CRPG could have been if it wasn't balanced wrong from the beggining.

You have to keep an open mind to these things.

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Re: Realistic version of balance
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 05:15:43 pm »
0
The main dev's are working on a different project.  They do not have time to make a slightly different version of this mod.  And like others said, it would split the player base, and lastly, it's not even possible to make a "realistic" medieval fighting game with the M&B Warband engine.
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