Author Topic: Meanwhile in USA  (Read 60107 times)

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Offline Grytviken

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #765 on: April 20, 2018, 06:45:30 am »
+2

Offline Westwood

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #766 on: April 20, 2018, 08:34:33 am »
+1
I don't know much about spilled milk but for insight into what America's interests in Syria might be, along with other contextual information, consider the following written last year. If you don't feel like reading 16 pages of summary assessment, then consider instead these important bits:

Quote
The traditional definition of U.S. interests in the Middle East has centered on ensuring the free flow of natural resources and maintaining relationships with key allies and protecting them from external threats, in part to ensure access for U.S. military operations.
Quote
The political arrangements of the Middle East look vastly different now than they did when President Barack Obama took office. Popular uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain and Yemen, three of which evolved into civil wars, have altered the landscape. These have resulted in occasional opportunities... But more often, this tumult has strained relations between the United States and its partners. This is largely attributable to Middle Eastern allies’ reduced faith in the U.S. security commitment... In the eyes of Arab rulers, not intervening to save Egypt’s president Hosni Mubarak, chastising Bahrain for its crackdown on Pearl Square demonstrators, intervening in Libya’s 2011 civil war without a plan for postwar stabilization, allowing the chemical weapons red line in Syria to be crossed without going to war against the Assad regime, and ultimately concluding a nuclear deal with Iran are all evidence of the same sin: abandonment. It is hard to overstate how strained relations became with Ankara, Jerusalem, Cairo, and Riyadh in the second term of the Obama administration. Turkey alleged U.S. involvement in a coup against the government, felt betrayed by the United States partnering with Kurdish forces in Syria, and has now taken to coordinating its own cross-border operations with Russia. Israel publicly opposed the Iran nuclear deal... Riyadh mounted a military campaign in Yemen against U.S. urging and has prosecuted it in a way that Washington considers escalatory. And Egypt accused the previous American administration of cozying up to the Muslim Brotherhood while failing to recognize the legitimacy of the 2013 “corrective revolution.” These partnerships have always been rocky... But whether the state of relations between Washington and Middle Eastern capitals is at an exceptionally low point or not, it is objectively poor.
Quote
The role of building partner capacity, while grinding and often uncelebrated, is crucial for addressing another key challenge: assuring American allies that the United States remains committed to their security. What the Saudi-led operation in Yemen, UAE involvement in Libya, and Turkish operations in Syria should teach us is that in the absence of American actions that signal a commitment to partner security, local actors will deploy their military forces in ways that will sometimes be escalatory and threaten to draw the United States into broader conflicts... investing in reassurance ...is about mitigating the potential for independent action that undermines U.S. interests ...avoiding substantial involvement in the region, however appealing, is not likely to be possible, and the U.S. military needs to be ready for such contingencies. In such cases, both past experience and ongoing changes in the strategic landscape of the region argue in favor of military interventions that are limited in scale and modest in ambition.

For additional context, let us also consider what a particular Neocon mouthpiece had to say about Syrian intervention in late 2016. Important bits:

Quote
The sad reality of international relations is that interests trump humanitarianism. The Security Council has deliberated, released statements and resolutions, and watched on as numerous cases of crimes against humanity came before it. Assad is not the first despot to inflict egregious crimes against his own people, and seemingly get away with it. When it serves the interest of a great power, morality is a footnote. And Russia is not the only party to the game—it is the standard conduct of all great powers.
Quote
If it is solely for humanitarian purposes, the United States will abstain every day of the week. It is necessary, thus, to determine what America’s interests are in the Syrian civil war, which remain unclear. Obama’s failure is not in that he has refused to intervene, but that, after five years of war, he has yet to clearly articulate what America’s interests are in this war.

Foreign policy was never a focus of the Obama administration, let alone Middle East policy beyond trying as hard as possible to look like the anti-Bush for PR reasons. Not only did Obama pass up opportunities to pursue American interests in the region, his administration didn't even properly establish what those interests were. Across his two terms the situation in the Middle East changed dramatically, that is to say half the Muslim world collapsed; including the part we'd just finished near-stabilizing six+ years into a counterinsurgency after Paul Bremer and the rest of the State Department fumbled an astonishingly swift tactical victory. We do nearly nothing in response to all the upheaval of the past decade, we don't try to maintain the status quo, we don't even consider the situation and define any sort of desired outcomes in our interests. Who does? Who goes beyond defining goals and actually asserts their positions in the region? Our little friends and our big enemies. When we do nothing, Russia, taking advantage of a vacuum, acts on their interests; Israel, lacking faith in our leadership, acts on their interests; Turkroaches, feeling a little of both, act on their interests; Saudi Arabia, lacking faith in our leadership, acts on their interests; Iran, taking advantage of a vacuum, acts on their interests. Our inaction has spurred action by others with conflicting interests, who will now step on the toes of one another and, if the linear course the Middle East has been on for the past decade continues, will escalate the situation militarily. What we are to do now with a situation that is magnitudes more intricate and dangerous remains to be seen. Time after time our military requested two things from civilian authorities to deal with the Middle East problem, defined goals and the operational independence to pursue them. From the Obama administration it received the opposite of both. From the Trump administration we've seen much more willingness to let the rest of the chain of command exercise their best judgement, but goals remain elusive. Do we like Assad? No, he's not /ourguy/, he's Russia's. Was there ever a plan to replace Assad? No, and there probably won't be at this point of escalation in the Syrian conflict. The "Red Line" only served to show everyone else in the region that America under Obama was full of shit when we didn't follow through. The time for showing people we were not full of shit was then, years ago. Further alleged uses of chemical weapons by Assadists may very well have provided and will provide opportunities to "topple the regime," but there was no plan to do so and no will to carry it out if it did exist. Media coverage of these events is its own reward for media companies, things that trigger an emotional response in the average consumer of news media, like gassed children, generate interest, discussion, and ad revenue. The media doesn't need an ulterior motive, they'll pump up whatever story leads them to cash, and dead kids makes people click. They don't drive policy. Joe on the street sees the headlines and is concerned, but if only he knew how bad things really were. The situation is actually such that his life as a materialistic sheep might be legitimately threatened as the trend of escalation continues.

If you're dead set on your milk metaphors, then it is entirely accurate to say that this milk was spilled several years ago by a different President. Except the milk glass is bottomless and has been pumping milk into our dining room continuously all those years. Also the milk is actually piss. We are now up to our eyes in piss. It is at this moment that news media looks in the window and says my God! There's a puddle of piss on the dining room floor, won't someone think of the children? We grab an air-to-surface mop and begin to fruitlessly swish it about in our dining room full of piss.

tldr:
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #767 on: April 20, 2018, 08:55:14 am »
0
very good post redacted for sake of preventing eye-rape

agree with nearly all of it, but don't want to waste time and text stroking your throbbing intellectual member.

did you mean that there existed no solid plan for Syrian regime change under the Trump administration? or no solid plan under Obama?

also (and i actually dont remember) what was Bremmer's major fuckup? was it something to do with essentially cleansing Baghdad and surrounding area of its Sunni population in Iraq War 2.5 in an effort to empower the new Shi'a leadership even though a large stated goal was, as always since '79, limiting the influence of Iran? like holy fuck boys why would you support a bunch of Shi'a militias genocide against the local Sunni and expect the Sunni to be ok with it and also the Shi'a to bend over and be good puppets. ain't like Iran is the de-facto religious leadership of the Shi'a or anything nah, those Mullahs ain't shit right?
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Offline Westwood

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #768 on: April 20, 2018, 09:12:24 am »
+1
did you mean that there existed no solid plan for Syrian regime change under the Trump administration? or no solid plan under Obama?
Both. There were certainly government officials and NGO talking heads saying "hey we should do this" but they had no plan beyond arming Syrian rebel groups. We couldn't even decide properly at the time who to arm, and it's far too late now.
also (and i actually dont remember) what was Bremmer's major fuckup? was it something to do with essentially cleansing Baghdad and surrounding area of its Sunni population in Iraq War 2.5 in an effort to empower the new Shi'a leadership even though a large stated goal was, as always since '79, limiting the influence of Iran? like holy fuck boys why would you support a bunch of Shi'a militias genocide against the local Sunni and expect the Sunni to be ok with it and also the Shi'a to bend over and be good puppets. ain't like Iran is the de-facto religious leadership of the Shi'a or anything nah, those Mullahs ain't shit right?
That's basically right, the process of "de-Ba'athification" that Bremer oversaw largely created the insurgency with the stroke of a pen. The Ba'athists were forced underground and took the Sunni community with them.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #769 on: April 20, 2018, 10:07:47 am »
+1
Low quality Japanese thinking he knows better than Heskey. LMAO!
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #770 on: April 20, 2018, 10:21:57 am »
0
There are things living on the underside of shoes that know better than Heskey
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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #771 on: April 20, 2018, 11:50:46 am »
0
Heskey is the foremost intellectual of these forums.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #772 on: April 20, 2018, 01:00:25 pm »
0
Media coverage of these events is its own reward for media companies, things that trigger an emotional response in the average consumer of news media, like gassed children, generate interest, discussion, and ad revenue. The media doesn't need an ulterior motive, they'll pump up whatever story leads them to cash, and dead kids makes people click.

Disagree there. There are dying kids and ethnic warfare the world over. Do you really think media focus in the West on Syria is completely divorced from geopolitical goals? Can't show "graphic content" of shit that happens daily even south of your own border, oh no, that would be wrong and offensive to the victims and embolden the perpetrators. Until you can use it in a blatantly emotionally manipulative way to justify Casus Belli, of course, then it needs to be plastered over every single mainstream news media outlet. Yeah just a massive (((coincidence))).

If you're dead set on your milk metaphors, then it is entirely accurate to say that this milk was spilled several years ago by a different President. Except the milk glass is bottomless and has been pumping milk into our dining room continuously all those years. Also the milk is actually piss. We are now up to our eyes in piss. It is at this moment that news media looks in the window and says my God! There's a puddle of piss on the dining room floor, won't someone think of the children? We grab an air-to-surface mop and begin to fruitlessly swish it about in our dining room full of piss.

There's spilt milk everywhere! Quickly, we must act now, without thought of context or consequence, those things are for bundle of stickss! I have the perfect solution!

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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #773 on: April 21, 2018, 07:45:27 am »
+1
If the crux of that post is to inform me that Trump wanted to show he'll follow through and actually take action, that's what I have been saying. I found it refreshing that for once words translated into action, we don't all subscribe to the school of though that just cos the old President wouldnt act the new one should never act and just watch the milk run. It's hardly a hidden ulterior motive, I'd even say fairly explicit in the action that was taken that this was a statement to the whole region or possibly wider. I'm glad you aren't in the camp of the chemical-weapon deniers, rebel-blamers or Oberyns trying to convince himself that Trump planned to replace Assad with strikes on a couple of facilities.

As your prize for being so much smarter than me I invite you to take up your rightful place on the underside of my shoe. It's where all the things that 'know better' than me are permitted to live.

takfiri-blamer and assad dindu nuffin advocate reporting in. well, actually assad and his pops was plenty happy to torture folk for the CIA before geopolitical aims changed. plenty happy that the SAA, Hezbollah is blowing apart daesh and assorted head-chopper shits in the sandbox but don't come close to falling for the internet Assadist cult-of-personality bullshit.

if you would care to take the time, you can read/listen to these

https://www.libertarianinstitute.org/articles/chemical-facility-hit-in-syria-strike-cleared-twice-by-inspectors-in-2017/

https://www.libertarianinstitute.org/scotthortonshow/4-10-18-rick-sterling-on-the-supposed-assad-chemical-attack-in-syria/

https://www.libertarianinstitute.org/scotthortonshow/4-14-18-gareth-porter-on-trumps-bombing-of-damascus/  (might be of more interest to you since you seem firmly committed to considering any narrative aside from Assad dropping chlorine and sarin 5 times over a few years as tinfoil conspiracy or imageboard racist LARPing)
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #774 on: April 21, 2018, 09:36:07 am »
+1
But, you see, the actual truth... http://pandyland.net/112

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #775 on: April 21, 2018, 01:18:59 pm »
0
Yeah, it is unconscionable to believe that western countries would ever lie or manufacture evidence about muh dangerous "WMD's" being used by ebil dictator against his own people for obvious geopolitical and strategic goals. Why, that could only happen in the mind of the most demented conspiracy theorists.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #776 on: April 21, 2018, 01:32:34 pm »
0
And conveniently the usual suspects online are pushing the pro-Russia narrative.

Yeah I fucking love Russia and Putin, just look at the Ukraine thread for some of my usual pro-Russia propaganda. Can't possibly be that I legitimately think Assad remaining in power is good for Syria and the region as a whole, no, I'm probably a russian Putin dick-sucking bot, eh Occam's Razor wins again. Meanwhile the "usual suspect" basic bitch normies suddenly turning warhawks when the entire media establishment tells them to through emotional manipulation is completely normal and logical.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #777 on: April 21, 2018, 01:42:38 pm »
0
It's like you truly can't understand that someone may have principles that go beyond superficial performance. Dat projection.
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #778 on: April 21, 2018, 01:48:34 pm »
+1
I think I have a healthy amount of suspicion over conspiracy theories that would require the collaboration of multiple western nations and possibly UN for very little gain, where the alternative narrative would coincidentally be incredibly convenient for... only Russia + friends. And conveniently the usual suspects online are pushing the pro-Russia narrative.

I will read the articles, but I cba to check their sources right now. What I will say is that I'm coming into these articles about why the US shouldnt have interfered with the understanding that this site even describes itself with the following:
"Our goal is to unite the libertarian movement, and more importantly, to realign American politics — prioritizing opposition to the worst of state power: the permanent war state, the prison and police states, and corporate welfare, corrupt contracts, and bank bailouts that rig the economy for the political class. The Libertarian Institute’s mission is to prioritize these issues and work with other groups from across the political spectrum against the greatest of abuses by the State. The Libertarian Institute is a nonprofit, 501(c)(3) organization formed in association with Taxpayer Education Foundation."
I can't imagine then writing an article applauding Trump's military action, frankly under any circumstances.

Oh, you'd be absolutely right. They'd have lukewarm reception at best if Congress approved some sort of foreign intervention in a war declaration, and something that ain't the paper-thin HURR WE KILL TERRORISTS ANYWHERE AUMF of 2001. Anything else and they're buttmad. I am also buttmad.

I think its not proper to act as if nations are anthropomorphic here; "collaboration of several western nations". I don't think that collaboration of certain few intelligence officials, high military brass, and similar from as many as two or three allies is outlandish at all. I'm not claiming that Macron and Trump had any sort of foreknowledge of the White Helmets' video, the alleged gas attack, or anything like that. Now good Theresa....iunno, aheheheh.

Here's my reckoning: members of Jaysh-al-Islam in Douma had numerous civilian hostages and, at least in 2013-2014 chemical weapons originating from the opposition WERE found every now and again. OPCW says all Syria's chemical weapons were dismantled, precursors disposed of, facilities fucked in 2013.

Pretty fucking easy for some Jaysh-al-Islam members to set up the show, Takfiri achmed calls his White Helmet m8 to start filming the event. I am not claiming that the attack was sourced from the West, attempting to form causus belli for Syria-Iran. I am claiming that the Jaysh guys have a huge fucking conflict with HTS (2018 syrian al qaeda) that mostly occupies Idlib province. The Syrian government has been, in cases of surrender, moving militants to Idlib province; probably with high hopes that they'll all slaughter one another.

I think that the "incident" was an attempt by Jaysh-al-Islam to stall or prevent getting re-located to Idlib province.

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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Meanwhile in USA
« Reply #779 on: April 21, 2018, 02:19:56 pm »
+1
Nah, I consider the potential agendas of both sides of the story and see that the West doesn't profit hugely in any way from attacking Syrian compounds whether a gas attack happened or not.

So you believe the missile strikes were supposed to accomplish what, exactly? It's beneficial to Assad if I believe our continuing moronic interventions in Syria are immoral? Fucking good, then it's detrimental to the hordes of salafist and wahhabist mongoloids we've funded to tear appart Syria.
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