Author Topic: Weight of swords...  (Read 15567 times)

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Offline Jarlek

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2011, 01:33:56 pm »
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i think that shieldbash could be done (kicking animation change to bashing)
Still wouldn't give us the ability to attack and defend at the same time.
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Offline Herald_Hardrata

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2011, 07:12:02 am »
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http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

thats all about 2handed swords, and yes contrary to forum belief they could hack pike shafts as they did (omg what wood is weaker than steel NO WAI)



taken from that article-


"The Italian humanist historian Paulus Jovius writing in the early 1500s also described the two-hand great sword as being used by Swiss soldiers to chop the shafts of pikes at the battle of Fornovo in 1495"

"The fighting two-handed sword, weighed (on average) between 5-7 lbs. I give the following three examples, randomly chosen from our own collections, which I hope are adequate to make the point:

Two-handed sword, German, c.1550 (IX.926). Weight: 7 lb 6oz.

Two-handed sword, German, dated 1529 (IX.991). Weight: 5 lb 1oz.

Two-handed sword, Scottish, mid 16th century, (IX.926). Weight: 5 lb 10oz.


All your examples are way after the medieval period. 16th c. steelwork was much more refined then what smiths were capable of in the 10th c. I'm not saying that a sword couldn't cut through wood, I'm more concerned with the fact that many people here seem to be arguing about different eras of history. I remember hearing stories about giant claymores that the Scottish would drag behind them and then heave around, lopping off the legs and hacking into the chests of oncoming cavalry. Apparently the swords were too heavy to wield normally.

It seems like people here are arguing about 2h swords as if they're universally the same across multiple continents and spanning multiple centuries in which a lot of advancements in smithing was taking place. I'm sure there were many swords that were much heavier. For instance, many experts believe that the long axe was a much more effective weapon as it was faster (weighed less) and was more versitile in combat. But that's in the early middle ages. To go and compare a 10th c. long axe to a 16th century swiss longsword is ridiculous.
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2011, 07:14:48 am »
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Those are bullshit stories like the "used a crane to put an armoured knight on a horse."
There is no historical evidence of 20lb swords.
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Offline FICO

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2011, 10:38:04 am »
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in medieval were, actually no twohanders :)
they appeared in renaissance. in medieval period the longest were battle longswords (cca from ground to armpit)

as for axe... it's not so wieldable as sword, lacks a bit defensieveness of sword, BUT it was easier to make, cheaper, you needed less pracice and it could "bypass" that era armour (padding + chainmail). if it don't bite into armour, well, than it can brake bones.
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Offline Vingnir the Wanderer

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2011, 08:45:53 am »
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Forgive me if I repeat anything said and acknowledged here already, but a few notes. I'm no expert, but, I have spent alittle time studying the subject.

I own a well crafted, 10th to 11th century viking sword repro that is 39 inches long, and has a blade of 32 3/4 inches. it weighs in at about 2 7/8 pounds. The balance point is about 7 inches up the blade from the guard. It can be a bear to handle, for any extended period, although I will admit, I'm not a massive guy. I am however somewhat athletic. I can do a seated military press of 175 pounds, and bench about 230-245. From the skeletal record, Scandinavian raiders of the time where on average about 5' 9", and I would imagine built like a hard worked farm hand with a leaner diet, coincidentally, this almost describes me to a tee. So my point to this description of myself, is that I am probably as large, and as strong, as your average Viking raider, which, according to the record,is significantly larger than the rest of the Western European population, for the most part - Thus I figure, I would assume, I'm probably a good model for what the average or slightly more than average western european soldier could handle, in terms of sword weights.

There is, no doubt, to researchers, that medieval/dark-age blades weight, has been grossly over-estimated.  But there are several factors at work here.

First of all, if you notice, 12th century and later blades, change in form - they taper towards the point more, and because of this, are much easier to handle for extended periods. Some have brought up the fact that this change in form was due to, singularly, an advance in understanding, and a need for thrusting at weak points in superior armor to that of the pre 12th century.. This is not completely true.

One thing that often is overlooked, is the PRACTICAL reality, of what your local blacksmith had as materials, and forging quality.

If you look at the historic record, many swords in northern/Western Europe, were made of scrap, and/or several rods of uneven, and questionable quality, twisted together, because of a lack of materials. The twisting technique however remained long after, and adds great strength, however, in pre-12th century europe, it was almost a necessity, just to keep the less than ideal materials, with a less than ideal temper, from breaking.

Also, tempering techniques, whether the knowledge was there or not, was most of the times not ideal.  what this means is, that swords where desinged often with less of a taper, and more actual metal because given material and temper, a taper would result in a sword breaking under stress.

If you will notice also, as we reach the 14th century, the taper and length of sword becomes more exagerated.  This is, basically, because the improvement in temper, teqnique, and available refined materials, was, better, AND a tapered blade, practically, is a superior tool.

Along with improved temper and material, the blacksmith could as noted earlier, now produce a two handed sword, with a blade thinner and more tapered blade, than a one handed 11th century sword.  Thus the 5-6 pound Greatsword that is found later at the end of the medieval period.  The fact that some Claymore's weigh in at 8 pounds, is more than likely due to the fact that the scottish were using Forges, and materials, that the more advanced civs had abandoned by the end of the 11th century.

My point however, is that, a one hander weighing 2.5-3 pounds, is at the upper end of practicality, unless it has an unusual amount of balance towards the handle, which is near impossible without a taper, and a taper, was not practical until after the 12th century, given materials, and temper common to the times.

An 8 pound Claymore, is yes, very possible, but not a result of practicality, but more likely a result of pre 12th century materials, forge, and forging techniques, in a 14th century and later setting, or a practical understanding that the 'smashing power of such a weighted blade, was as important as speed - Or an adaption since a 5 pounder was much harder to produce.

And indeed many two-handed/great swords did weigh in at 5 or 6 pounds, and sometimes even less.

And let me tell you, until you feel these weights in your own hand, and swing the thing around for 20 minutes, its hard to understand, that these are very significant weights to deal with, even if they sound rather low.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 09:09:54 am by Vingnir the Wanderer »

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2011, 06:36:38 pm »
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If any post ever needed a +1, the post above does. We should ask for that feature in this sub-forum.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
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Offline Jarlek

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2011, 07:35:29 pm »
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If any post ever needed a +1, the post above does. We should ask for that feature in this sub-forum.
Agreed. That was a very nice and informative post.  3 reasons I didn't quote him directly is because of it's length, that I agree with ToD and because ToD is a cute bitch and I like to quote cute bitches xD
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Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2011, 07:37:17 pm »
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ToD avatar is a cute bitch, ToD on the other hand...
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2011, 07:43:58 pm »
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ToD avatar is a cute bitch, ToD on the other hand...
Quote from: Ramses
Get rid of the cute part and we are getting closer to the truth.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
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Offline Bija

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2011, 11:49:19 pm »
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Very nice post, Vingnir. I might add that a bench press of 230-245 for someone that's 5'9"(assuming you weigh between 145 and 170) is probably significantly more than your typical male around that time could do. It would also be natural to assume that their strength was more lower body/core-based, both from their genetic disposition and the way of life/how they worked.

Offline Anwyl

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2011, 11:54:03 pm »
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And let me tell you, until you feel these weights in your own hand, and swing the thing around for 20 minutes, its hard to understand, that these are very significant weights to deal with, even if they sound rather low.

This is not taking into account muscle memory. I'm 5'5" and 106 pounds and I can practice/spar with my 3.5 pound longsword for well over 2 hours without getting tired. It is not so much that it is a "significant weight" as it is your body doing something it is not used to. Some muscles used during sparring are not used at all in everyday activities, but after building them up just a little bit, make an incredible difference in how you are able to wield a weapon.


Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2011, 11:55:53 pm »
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You are using 2 hands to spar with your longsword, you gotta take that in account as well.
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Offline Anwyl

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2011, 12:04:28 am »
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You are using 2 hands to spar with your longsword, you gotta take that in account as well.

I spar with:

2 handed Longsword (3.5 lbs)
1 handed Sidesword (2.25 lbs)
1 handed Dussack (3.5 lbs)
Glaive (8 lbs total - 7 lbs in the blade)

As well as a few others such as saber and rapier than really have little practical relevance here.

I will say easily that the first two or three times I sparred I was exhausted and couldn't move my arms, but after going through the motions a few times doesn't feel like it weighs anything. The exception to that being glaive, but I mean it's 7 lbs of steel on top of a 7 foot ash pole, no one gets used to that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk&feature=youtu.be
That is not a view of people horribly effected by the weight of their weapons. They are using Fechterspiel swords, which are about 4 pounds (theirs are built a bit heavier for sparring purposes).
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 12:43:00 am by Anwyl »

Offline Vingnir the Wanderer

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2011, 01:01:45 am »
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Well thanks for the nice responses guys!

I actually agree with Anwyl, and Bija and dont claim to regularly work out with my sword.

Just to clarify, I'm built a little more solid than most people at 5' 9"  weighing in at about 170-175 and hovering around 10-12 percent body fat. 

I totally agree with Anwyl though... Ever go out and play a couple hours worth of aggresive tennis, after not doing so for a few years, and then feel the strain on your forearm the next day? And a tennis racket is pretty damned light - just imagine if it weighed 2 or three pounds lol.

I'd also add, though, that the viking sword that I own, is probably not as tapered or' 'handle balanced' as the swords you work out with, meaning the fulcrum affect of the sword, is probably a little more intense than most later medieval sparring swords. not only that, but the sword is rather long for a viking blade, where historically most came in at about 30 inches, and mine is 32 3/4. I think really, that this is probably, one of the biggest reasons once it was practical, why blade design began to taper more, because every warrior out there would probably tell you, that your own fatigue is your biggest enemy, just as it is in modern sports.

I also believe, as more learned students of the subject believe, that the viking sword generally is intended to be used with a shield, which would mean, alot more down time not swinging, and thus, 20 minutes of 'swinging it around' would practically with a shield, in a battle with engagement, blocking and rengagement, result in probably, atleast an hour of time before my arm would tire, and when your life was on the line, I would imagine you would just suck it up, overcome, and worry about it later hehehe. -Also when I said tired, I didnt mean 'so tired I couldnt be affective with it' Just, after 20 minutes, I could actually begin to feel a slight amount of muscle fatigue.  kinda like when your running a 10 mile race, and you start feeling things abit at 4 miles in.

I 'm actually pretty impressed with the knowledge that was here already, and it sounds like many of you are probably more knowledgable on practical sword use, and historical context than I am.

I just wanted to point out my personal experience, and that the taper and forge quality, probably have alot to do with whether a sword could be handled for a long time, regardless of weight, and that swords in general, have been misrepresented as heavier than they most likely where.

Thanks again though for the positive response, I've really enjoyed these forums when they turn to serious subjects, as the discussion seems pretty darned adult for a interwebz forum.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 01:24:08 am by Vingnir the Wanderer »

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Weight of swords...
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2011, 01:23:04 am »
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Hey Vingnir do you have a site with the specs of your sword?

Here's mine http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1559
I know there are better quality swords out there but this one seemed rather good for the price/quality ratio according to the few review I managed to find.
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