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Do you agree that picks should be faster, but slightly weaker?

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Author Topic: Maces vs Picks Ideology  (Read 2335 times)

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Offline San

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Maces vs Picks Ideology
« on: January 29, 2014, 12:35:06 am »
+12
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Before we get to the ideology of how picks function vs maces:

Pick internal balance: I believe the progression makes sense. Outside of the pickaxe, they get progressively stronger, shorter, and more dense. A little boring, but I believe that it works out. The fighting pick and military sickle have great secondary modes, but I think they are still a tad weak. Like the military hammer, the fighting pick receives some large penalties for reaching the extremes of the class' length, but I think it could at least have 98 speed.

Mace internal balance: As we see from the iron mace vs winged mace, weight is an important balance quantity that can be traded for better speed/power. Because of this, I believe it's warranted for spathovaklion to have its weight reduced to 1. It will still have 1.5 weight when masterworked and work as a nice balance between the typical mace and pick.

There are also very few downsides when upgrading from iberian mace to the warhammer. This is a similar situation as the military pick to the steel pick, but in this case, the difference in power is greater and the warhammer obtains a stab. I believe warhammer should have its speed reduced by 1. With these two changes, the most powerful, long, heavy, and fastest blunt weapons have some tradeoffs between each other with the iberian mace acting as the middleground.


Maces vs Picks:
Right now, picks overlap way too heavily with the maces to be interchangeable. Picks feel like marginally faster maces without knockdown *yawn*. I think the difference between these two weapon groups should be more pronounced. Unlike 2h and polearms, blunt 1hers are balanced weapons.

I believe the pick class weapons should excel against medium to medium armours, but struggle a bit against the extreme light/heavy armours compared to swords and maces. I believe that this can be accomplished by increasing the speed of steel pick and military pick by 1, but decreasing their power by 1 at the same time. This would delegate the status of "powerhouse" among 1hers to maces/hammers for medium-heavy/heavy armour, swords best against light/medium-light armour, axes would remain a jack of all trades, and picks would retain fast and consistent damage. Comparing the steel pick to the warhammer and the military pick to the iberian mace, it makes more sense. -1 damage is similar to loss of half a powerstrike of damage.

Not saying that I expect swords to be bad against heavy armours and the like, but that there are other 1h weapons available that could do a better job vs. that specific target. I also believe this would ease the ridiculous base damage that the picks (+ warhammer) had in the past against 1h swords.



tl;dr:

Internally:
Fighting pick +1 speed to 98 cause it's bad all around
Spathovaklion -1 weight to 1.0 to reduce knockdown, weight used as balance factor for iron mace vs winged mace
Warhammer -1 speed to 96, too fast for its power increase/stab upgrade from iberian (using one at +0 I can just dig my held swing in the enemy and it'll go through (hiltslash?) fairly quickly).

So picks = good vs medium/medium-heavy, but be only decent vs very light/heavy gear while maces stay great against heavy armour:
Steel Pick +1 speed to 99, -1 swing damage to 30
Military Pick +1 speed to 99, -1 swing damage to 28

Just wanted to see what people thought about this/refined further if I missed anything since it's not really a straight up buff/nerf.

Offline Jarold

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2014, 12:49:54 am »
0
It seems like maces will just get picked over picks even more now, why get one or two extra points in speed when you can get knockdown and be effective across a larger armor group?

Offline Penitent

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 12:52:04 am »
0
Interesting observations...
Your thinking is sound, in theory, but if we increase pick speed it may cause problems because they are kind of hard to see (steel pick anyways).  I think the steel pick used to be faster in the past but it was toned down.

The warhammer is a mighty weapon, but lowering it's speed I don't think is a great solution.  It's already super short.  I would instead consider increasing the speed of the military hammer and maaaybe the iberian mace and winged mace.

I agree something should be done to adjust the spathovaklion, weight change might be a good one.

These are just my first thought upon reading your post.  I both agree and disagree.  :)

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 01:05:24 am »
+1
Don't you dare try to get my steel pick nerfed again you cockmaster 5000. It already had its nerfs!


Offline Tydeus

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 04:25:20 am »
+3
Edit: Actually, on second thought I think I like this. I'm not sure the pick should really gain 1 more speed to be honest, but I do think we need to change the status quo. That is, pierce and blunt 1hers need changed. Pierce should always have the best damage against high armors by a fair bit, with blunt's advantage coming from the knockdown(lower weight could therefore receive speed and/or damage increases).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 04:36:10 am by Tydeus »
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Offline Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2014, 04:35:43 am »
+1
I agree with all your item suggestions except for the Warhammer speed reduction - if it's going to be nerfed, the Spathovaklion should be nerfed. Also, going off topic a bit, I think one hand axes could use speed buffs. Even though they are made for great side arms, their inferiority to swords and blunt weapons is extremely obvious.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 04:38:06 am »
0
I agree with all your item suggestions except for the Warhammer speed reduction - if it's going to be nerfed, the Spathovaklion should be nerfed. Also, going off topic a bit, I think one hand axes could use speed buffs. Even though they are made for great side arms, their inferiority to swords and blunt weapons is extremely obvious.

Mace internal balance: As we see from the iron mace vs winged mace, weight is an important balance quantity that can be traded for better speed/power. Because of this, I believe it's warranted for spathovaklion to have its weight reduced to 1. It will still have 1.5 weight when masterworked and work as a nice balance between the typical mace and pick.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 05:36:58 am »
+7
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 06:06:57 am »
0
I think by and large 1h weapons are nicely balanced...except the spathovaklion.  I'll echo a other player by calling that thing kind of an abomination.  :). It's a cool weap, but not at all in line with the others power-wise.

Needs 1 less speed or at least a weight redux.

Offline Pentecost

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 06:46:30 pm »
+3
I am glad you made this topic, because I also felt that some of the weapons you mentioned were in need of adjustment.


Regarding maces vs. picks:
The reason why it seems like there is a lack of differentiation between the blunt 1hs and the pierce 1hs is because of incremental changes to the detriment of pierce 1hs. If you go back to late 2012, I felt that there were actual tradeoffs involved when choosing between the Steel Pick (100 speed, 35 pierce, and 12 str requirement at +3) and Warhammer (97 speed, 34 blunt, and 15 str requirement at +3). The Steel Pick was significantly faster than the Warhammer and had low enough requirements that even very extreme agility builds could make use of it. The Warhammer had the highest damage and knockdown chance among all 1hs. Both had their place, and neither eclipsed the other.

The problem came with two patches that happened within 3 months of each other, 0.2.9.3 (http://forum.melee.org/announcements/0-2-9-3/) in March of 2013 and 0.3.0.1 in June of 2013 (http://forum.melee.org/announcements/0-3-0-1/) that made it so that the Steel Pick lost 1 damage, 1 speed, and required 1 more strength to use, in addition to removing 1 damage from the Military Pick. While these were comparatively small changes, they shifted the internal balance of pierce vs. blunt 1hs decisively in favor of blunt 1hs. This disparity only became more pronounced after the addition of the Spathovaklion, a knockdown weapon that has better speed than either of the picks at the expense of only slightly less damage (about 1 effective damage difference against targets with 60 body armor).


What should be done:
I'm not entirely sure. I personally would be in favor of removing the secondary modes from the Military Pick and Steel Pick in exchange for reversing some of the previous stat decreases, but I also think that many people already believe the picks to be overpowered and would be against anything that makes them more effective. There is, however, one change for the Military Pick that I think should happen no matter what (see below).


Regarding internal balance for maces:
*Give the Spiked Mace +1 damage and increase its cost by 500-700. This makes it so that the Spiked Mace, Flanged Mace, and Iron Mace are of comparable strength and price while each bringing different things to the table as far as budget blunt 1hs go.
*Give the Iberian Mace +1 damage. As you said, San, it is less than stellar compared to the Warhammer, even after accounting for the huge difference in cost.


Regarding internal balance for picks:
*Give the Fighting Pick +1 speed. I agree with you that it is not a very good weapon and that giving it 1 more speed would at least make it slightly more competitive.
*Reduce the strength requirement of the Military Pick by 1. Giving the Military Pick a strength requirement of 12 rather than 13 would reduce overlap and serve to differentiate it from the Steel Pick by giving it a niche use among characters who have less than 15 strength.


Regarding the Spathovaklion specifically: Right now, the Spathovaklion is basically a Flanged Mace that has 2 more damage. Reducing its weight to 1 means that it will have a less than 5% chance to knockdown when unheirloomed and arguably make it a worse weapon than the Flanged Mace for normal battle. Rather than just a flat reduction in its stats, I have some other ideas on how you could make it less problematic than it currently is without making it worthless. Those are for another topic, however.

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2014, 08:37:32 pm »
+1
Just add a secondary throwing mode for the Spathovaklion, problem solved.  With a stack of 9 of course.
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Offline Erzengel

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2014, 11:04:48 pm »
+1
I am for a Spathovaklion nerf, but reducing it's weight to 1.0 is the wrong way. It is the speed which makes it so annoying, not the weight. Give it -1 or -2 speed and it will be fine. Reducing the weight to 1.0 would completly ruin the weapon.

Offline Andswaru

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2014, 11:24:57 pm »
+1
Have you ever met Kinngrimm?

Or any of the 100 greys using it on siege with swing spam. For the love of (insert deity or other figurehead), dont buff the steel picks speed. Do anything else to it but that.

Edit:

The rest sounds good tho, except i would only nerf the Spathovaklion 0.5 in weight so that +3 is then the equalivant of the momentary +0.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 11:39:18 pm by Andswaru »
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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2014, 11:38:58 pm »
+4
Spathovaklion does feel rediculous when you fight someone with it....between its speed, damage, and knockdown percentage.

It looks like the microphone from the Price is Right...it shouldn't knock down a kitten.

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Offline Ronin

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Re: Maces vs Picks Ideology
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2014, 02:35:36 pm »
0
looking at some of the comments now. cRPG community didn't disappoint me again. "Why you wan' narf ma wapon? I bash yo skullz!"

I am for a Spathovaklion nerf, but reducing it's weight to 1.0 is the wrong way. It is the speed which makes it so annoying, not the weight. Give it -1 or -2 speed and it will be fine. Reducing the weight to 1.0 would completly ruin the weapon.
OP says the +3 version will have 1.5 weight :wink:
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