Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"

[Nightingale]

yes WPF differences do make a noticeable difference in shooting of crossbows.  But that doesn't explain why of all the weapons in the game, crossbows are the only one without a governing skill to them. Melee has power strike, archery has power draw, throwing has power throw.  For balance sake, crossbows should also have a governing skill.

Your argument would basically work the same for removing PD from archery, or PT from throwing.  It doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint. 

I think the time for adding a skill requirement to crossbows has passed however, the time to do so would have been when people were getting free respecs. 

Rohypnol also uses an arb and dominates with it (he said he only had 135 WPF also).

I thought about throwing Rohypnol in there but the reason I didn't was because he doesn't actually kill very many people with the arbalest itself. He racks up kills with his melee proportion of his build which is normal. At least from what I have seen.

Taser I'd say 150 to 160 is decently accurate I have 185 so I can shoot further and reload faster. staying a safe distance away from the enemy means I need to be able to shoot accurately over a larger distance. The average person that uses an arb doesn't actually go for very many long shots.

Also side note I'd say 185 is either the cap on accuracy or very close to it.

[CrazyCracka420]

Can you explain (in your opinion) why crossbow users shouldn't have to have a skill investment to be "as effective" with using a crossbow?  Any other type of weapon also benefits from having WPF, so therefore has a WPF investment as well.  Any other weapon type also has a Strength requirement to use them.  Someone could certainly fight with 0 power strike (you can't do the same with bows or throwing unless you're using the lowest possible tiers, and even then you probably still need at least 1 PT or PD), but you aren't going to be effective at all. 

I don't see why crossbows are justified in not having an overarching "skill" that governs their usage, or at minimum, how much more effective they are versus not having that skill.  I think it would make sense to have a PD or PT type of skill associated with crossbows, you need "X" skill to use "Y" crossbow.

Although I think this is a moot point, because to be fair, if these changes were made, you'd have to give people a free respec (or at least people with WPF in crossbows), and I don't see that happening. 

[Thomek]

They are dedicated to it and this destroys pure arb builds to make it 24.
Its a quick fix that actually makes it worse.

No shit. That's the point. The class is retarded. Way too easy to play for its power.

Still, i can easily hit and kill people at close to medium ranges with just 116 wpf in xbows on my lvl20 alt.

At lvl 34, which is not unreasonable for a specialist, they would have 7wm, and I guess around 160+ wpf and that's decent.

Besides, 8 PS is nothing to laugh at in Melee.

[San]

yes WPF differences do make a noticeable difference in shooting of crossbows.  But that doesn't explain why of all the weapons in the game, crossbows are the only one without a governing skill to them. Melee has power strike, archery has power draw, throwing has power throw.  For balance sake, crossbows should also have a governing skill.

Your argument would basically work the same for removing PD from archery, or PT from throwing.  It doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint. 

I think the time for adding a skill requirement to crossbows has passed however, the time to do so would have been when people were getting free respecs. 

By wpf difference, I was talking about the melee difference of a pure build vs the xbow hybrid once the melee approaches. The wpf difference in melee makes it harder for the xbower than it initially seems is what I was trying to say. In the second part, I was questioning some of the more intricate parts of his suggestion that confused me.

It does make sense for xbows to require a skill requirement, but it needs to make sense and worth the work of implementing it. A skill based on reload time made more sense to me than removing crossbow wpf and working off some new formula. I think we are generally in agreement, so I think I may have misread somewhere?

[Taser]

I thought about throwing Rohypnol in there but the reason I didn't was because he doesn't actually kill very many people with the arbalest itself. He racks up kills with his melee proportion of his build which is normal. At least from what I have seen.

Taser I'd say 150 to 160 is decently accurate I have 185 so I can shoot further and reload faster. staying a safe distance away from the enemy means I need to be able to shoot accurately over a larger distance. The average person that uses an arb doesn't actually go for very many long shots.

Also side note I'd say 185 is either the cap on accuracy or very close to it.

Yeah that's Roh though. He's great at crossbow on his HX however.

I know its adequate but 170 or higher is what I've heard to be considered good for wpf. Afaik 185 is around the cap for arb to my knowledge as well.

Also did Tin (aka Queef) use arb before? He uses heavy crossbow now but I can't believe I forgot about him.

Can you explain (in your opinion) why crossbow users shouldn't have to have a skill investment to be "as effective" with using a crossbow?  Any other type of weapon also benefits from having WPF, so therefore has a WPF investment as well.  Any other weapon type also has a Strength requirement to use them.  Someone could certainly fight with 0 power strike (you can't do the same with bows or throwing unless you're using the lowest possible tiers, and even then you probably still need at least 1 PT or PD), but you aren't going to be effective at all. 

I don't see why crossbows are justified in not having an overarching "skill" that governs their usage, or at minimum, how much more effective they are versus not having that skill.  I think it would make sense to have a PD or PT type of skill associated with crossbows, you need "X" skill to use "Y" crossbow.

Although I think this is a moot point, because to be fair, if these changes were made, you'd have to give people a free respec (or at least people with WPF in crossbows), and I don't see that happening. 

Who is doing this?

[Taser]

No shit. That's the point. The class is retarded. Way too easy to play for its power.

Some would say that about people who use katanas and how fast they are.

Still, i can easily hit and kill people at close to medium ranges with just 116 wpf in xbows on my lvl20 alt.

At lvl 34, which is not unreasonable for a specialist, they would have 7wm, and I guess around 160+ wpf and that's decent.

Besides, 8 PS is nothing to laugh at in Melee.

There's a difference between decent and good wpf. There's also a difference between good suggestions and bad ones. Your suggestion of making arb 24 str is a bad one.

A skill sink like jarold suggesting isn't a terrible idea. It'd need tinkering since we need to know how long reloads are now with the different xbows and how long we want to make them if this skill was in for 1 point in, 2 points in, etc. It'd be interesting.

[CrazyCracka420]

By wpf difference, I was talking about the melee difference of a pure build vs the xbow hybrid once the melee approaches. The wpf difference in melee makes it harder for the xbower than it initially seems is what I was trying to say. In the second part, I was questioning some of the more intricate parts of his suggestion that confused me.

It does make sense for xbows to require a skill requirement, but it needs to make sense and worth the work of implementing it. A skill based on reload time made more sense to me than removing crossbow wpf and working off some new formula. I think we are generally in agreement, so I think I may have misread somewhere?

No it was me who misread your post (or read it too quickly more likely). 

Who is doing this?

Just trying to see if anyone can find a reason why crossbows shouldn't have a skill requirement governing their usage (or at least their effectiveness).  I've never understood why this was never addressed. 

[Jarold]

My main beef is that crossbowman are saying that they do invest in their class with Weapon Master. Helloooooo, all classes have to do that I recently upgraded my strength build with 3 wm but I also had to give myself a lot of powerstrike so my build could be effective. It's every class but crossbowman who do not need to invest in anything other than WM.

Maybe to compensate if there is something like a PD requirement that decreases reload speed you could make crossbows more accurate for loss of wpf....maybe.

[Taser]

Just trying to see if anyone can find a reason why crossbows shouldn't have a skill requirement governing their usage (or at least their effectiveness).  I've never understood why this was never addressed.

Yeah I have no problem with a skill requirement for reloads or usage. I just want to know how they'd be implemented.

A skill for reload time might be handy. Like a regular crossbow takes 20 seconds to reload with no skill but 5 seconds with 3 skill points in the skill. Kinda like that. Make it so dedicated crossbowmen actually have to put points somewhere but that it actually helps in some way so wpf isn't the only factor.

Obviously the times for reload is just to illustrate what I mean but I think something like that would work out well. It'd make it so a crossbow would take forever to reload for a regular person who just picks it up and forces some skill sink for a dedicated crossbow user so they can be effective.

But as you have pointed out, this screws crossbow users now since they'd have horrible builds without this skill and would be forced to respec. It'd still be worth looking into.

[Taser]

My main beef is that crossbowman are saying that they do invest in their class with Weapon Master. Helloooooo, all classes have to do that I recently upgraded my strength build with 3 wm but I also had to give myself a lot of powerstrike so my build could be effective. It's every class but crossbowman who do not need to invest in anything other than WM.

That's ranged in general really. They always need as much WM as possible in order to have the best accuracy they can get. Which is why archers, throwers, crossbowmen always max out WM and get lots of agi.

Maybe to compensate if there is something like a PD requirement that decreases reload speed you could make crossbows more accurate for loss of wpf....maybe.

Hmmmmmmm a skill to reduce reload time? I dunno about that 

[Jarold]

That's ranged in general really. They always need as much WM as possible in order to have the best accuracy they can get. Which is why archers, throwers, crossbowmen always max out WM and get lots of agi.

True, but what do throwers and archers have to also do, invest in PD or PT.

Hmmmmmmm a skill to reduce reload time? I dunno about that 

San (or Apsod) suggested that one, I just used it as an example.

[Taser]

True, but what do throwers and archers have to also do, invest in PD or PT.

Yeah I agree.

I don't think it should be mandatory though but be a major detriment if you don't have it. Like my example in my previous post. If it were changed to 20 seconds for a regular crossbow reload for a person with no reload skill then maybe a person with 3 reload skill would reload that regular crossbow in 5 seconds. Something like that.

Not sure if wpf would need to be tampered with after that. But I'm not sure this can be done or not. I do think it'd help a lot though.

San (or Apsod) suggested that one, I just used it as an example.

Didn't read my above post did you? 

[Nightingale]

Can you explain (in your opinion) why crossbow users shouldn't have to have a skill investment to be "as effective" with using a crossbow?  Any other type of weapon also benefits from having WPF, so therefore has a WPF investment as well.  Any other weapon type also has a Strength requirement to use them.  Someone could certainly fight with 0 power strike (you can't do the same with bows or throwing unless you're using the lowest possible tiers, and even then you probably still need at least 1 PT or PD), but you aren't going to be effective at all. 

I don't see why crossbows are justified in not having an overarching "skill" that governs their usage, or at minimum, how much more effective they are versus not having that skill.  I think it would make sense to have a PD or PT type of skill associated with crossbows, you need "X" skill to use "Y" crossbow.

Although I think this is a moot point, because to be fair, if these changes were made, you'd have to give people a free respec (or at least people with WPF in crossbows), and I don't see that happening.

I never said we shouldn't have some type of skill to invest in to use certain xbows. PD requirements or something like PD at least could possibly work if implemented carefully. I just don't want to see this class destroyed by people that don't even play it and just want to see it nerfed and gone because it kills them occasionally.

No shit. That's the point. The class is retarded. Way too easy to play for its power.

Still, i can easily hit and kill people at close to medium ranges with just 116 wpf in xbows on my lvl20 alt.

At lvl 34, which is not unreasonable for a specialist, they would have 7wm, and I guess around 160+ wpf and that's decent.

Besides, 8 PS is nothing to laugh at in Melee.

Like this guy here, if he had his way not only would the Arbalest no longer be used as a long range weapon it would become even more rare to see anyone actually using it and to be completely honest I don't understand his posts here at all... why should it be that someone must level to level 34 to be semi effective with any particular weapon... and your justification of 8 ps being good in melee sure... it is but at that point we would be by far more effective with the melee weapon than the weapon we choose to actually spec in. If this happened what is even the point in bringing an Arb with you.

[Thomek]

Perhaps I was a bit rash. Point is, I think most of these mechanics are hardcoded, and are not going to happen.

Only very simple things can be done at this point and not be completely unlikely to be implemented.

(Simple things such as editing item requirements.)

The community have asked for xbow skills for nearly 4 years. (!)


So sorry to break it to you if you weren't aware. There is nothing wrong in the basic idea. It just won't happen..  But then again, 24 was perhaps a bit extreme since you would want 1h wpf too. 21, is still hybridizable xbow since it just requires wpf, besides many xbowers probably have 18+ strength already for melee purposes.

EDIT:
Arbalest is very common on EU. Dunno whats up on NA.. I guess you just like to melee more.

FYI, the Arbalest is an extremely powerful weapon. Shoot any target of opportunity and 1 shot lots of people. It breaks the lameness scale. When you get 1shotted, there are no second chances. It's the weapon for people that Hide and Wait. It would still be with my nerf suggestion, just they would have to wait a bit closer to the battle, and they could no longer just run away too!

[Nightingale]

Perhaps I was a bit rash. Point is, I think most of these mechanics are hardcoded, and are not going to happen.

Only very simple things can be done at this point and not be completely unlikely to be implemented.

(Simple things such as editing item requirements.)

The community have asked for xbow skills for nearly 4 years. (!)


So sorry to break it to you if you weren't aware. There is nothing wrong in the basic idea. It just won't happen..  But then again, 24 was perhaps a bit extreme since you would want 1h wpf too. 21, is still hybridizable xbow since it just requires wpf, besides many xbowers probably have 18+ strength already for melee purposes.

EDIT:
Arbalest is very common on EU. Dunno whats up on NA.. I guess you just like to melee more.

I am aware that the community have asked for it for a long while I've been playing since they started asking. 
and for the most part I agree xbows need something to invest in other than just wpf... but it should give stat boosts like PD and PT but you would need to nerf the stats on the arb accordingly to stop it from becoming OP. Ideally you would want low investment nerfed and high investment relatively the same as now.

As for EU there have always been an abundance of range for every class it seems. NA its mostly just archers and some throwers.

Replying to your ghost edit : I don't know about it 1 shotting a lot of people either... almost always I have to shoot the guy at least twice. I did notice last strat when EU would accept me to their battles I felt like I could do more damage there than on NA. (especially to EU archers and medium infantry.)