Author Topic: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"  (Read 7422 times)

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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2014, 04:16:50 pm »
-1
Simply being able to counter melee with manual block counters better than a shield against range and you don't need anything for that. These melee fights can last forever, and the 1 handers are very strong atm. Thats if the melee player has got into range after getting shot from any direction. Then you add the lack of skill sink, that some will take a shield as well and you have a pretty unbalanced char set up

Hybrid melee with range pushes melee players to take some ranged ability too, its just overall bad for the mod imo
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2014, 08:49:20 pm »
+2
Two equally skilled fighters meet up on the battlefield, what happens? Yes the one with the better equipment and stats most probably wins.

Crossbow + steel bolts = 3 slots ---> only one 1 slot is left. Crossbow and steel bolts also tend to weight a lot (not like arrows and a bow but it's still a lot). The player with the 2hand/polearm with practically better armor or faster movement will have an advantage over the crossbowman in melee fight.

Yes the crossbowman can still win, and personally speaking I mostly do. That's because, however I mostly face with players that are worse than me in melee (I think I'm above avarage in melee). So I somehow counter that effect. If I face with someone with an equal skill or worse someone better, then I am the one having a harder time mostly. In high level duels, those differences make up the whole difference! If you can't use your advantage against a hybrid, you're already a worst fighter than him!


Raising the STR requirement does not sound like an extremely effective idea. One can always do well with a less powerful crossbow if he can't use... say... arbalest, for example. Personally speaking, I use a crossbow with 21/21 build. I feel pretty effective, so unless you make even the lightest crossbow 30 STR requirement or something this won't really change all that much. 15 STR is a bit of a joke, but 18 STR won't really cut it off too. It will only make a few players angry when they can't use their favourite crossbows with their current build. It is only a matter of time before they get used to another crossbow.


Before someone criticizes me for being a lobbyist, I want to say... well ... whatever. Those people are idiots already.
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Offline Jarold

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2014, 09:02:04 pm »
-2
Yeah good points but at least they won't be using the super charged high tier crossbows. :P

It seems like you think 1h weapons are underpowered but in my experience they are really effective if you use the right ones. A crossbowman with a spathovaklion or something similar are pretty hard hitting in melee, especially with knockdown and speed bonus.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2014, 10:29:14 pm »
+1
Two equally skilled fighters meet up on the battlefield, what happens? Yes the one with the better equipment and stats most probably wins.

Crossbow + steel bolts = 3 slots ---> only one 1 slot is left. Crossbow and steel bolts also tend to weight a lot (not like arrows and a bow but it's still a lot). The player with the 2hand/polearm with practically better armor or faster movement will have an advantage over the crossbowman in melee fight.

Yes the crossbowman can still win, and personally speaking I mostly do. That's because, however I mostly face with players that are worse than me in melee (I think I'm above avarage in melee). So I somehow counter that effect. If I face with someone with an equal skill or worse someone better, then I am the one having a harder time mostly. In high level duels, those differences make up the whole difference! If you can't use your advantage against a hybrid, you're already a worst fighter than him!


Raising the STR requirement does not sound like an extremely effective idea. One can always do well with a less powerful crossbow if he can't use... say... arbalest, for example. Personally speaking, I use a crossbow with 21/21 build. I feel pretty effective, so unless you make even the lightest crossbow 30 STR requirement or something this won't really change all that much. 15 STR is a bit of a joke, but 18 STR won't really cut it off too. It will only make a few players angry when they can't use their favourite crossbows with their current build. It is only a matter of time before they get used to another crossbow.


Before someone criticizes me for being a lobbyist, I want to say... well ... whatever. Those people are idiots already.

Part of the problem is that taking ranged just compliments a melee player's skill set. You will beat players in melee and you will left click on shit from distance for kills.

A good melee player with just a 2 hander will kick ass in melee, a good player with a 1 hander and xbow with have best of best worlds. He will still kick ass in melee and do these ranged hits. One handers are amazing atm with or without shield, and you have no requirements for the xbow besides some WPF
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Offline En_Dotter

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2014, 11:54:05 pm »
-4
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Offline Nightingale

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion and More -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2014, 12:38:06 am »
+1
It's not purely balanced around random people picking up crossbows, it's about the guys who have 170 wpf in crossbows without any investment besides a normal agi build that can kite and s-key out of all your swings while still dealing shit loads of ranged damage. If they wanted to they could be a strength build with decent accuracy and do massive damage in melee and ranged. I don't think any other class is capable of that since they all have to invest in some form of skill to use their weapons.

As if 170 isn't an investment, wm to use the arbalest is an investment, It may not be enough to statisfy your definition of "investment" but it is still an investment. Just increase the usefulness of WPF and decrease the usefulness of no wpf. If all you are worried about is people picking them up and being "effective" with 1 wpf.  The damage is mediocre at best if you have any armor on at all. Athletics are needed as well so we can reload more than once or twice. I have yet to see a "Strength" xbow build be overly effective.

I can name maybe 4-5 notable Arb users NA side (That are dedicated builds). I have no idea what EU looks like they always seem to have an abundance of range period.

This is just my opinion- I think they went about the wpf change all wrong in the first place, instead of giving everyone more or the same amount of WPF they just needed to make WPF actually mean something so people feel the need to invest more wpf in the second proportions of their hybrid builds.

Arb users can't kite very effectively if one single enemy chases you... You will not ever be able to reload. Most of the time when this happens to me on siege I just run for the nearest teammate or for awhile if they dont let up I jump from a high place. I guess you could say I'm suicidal.
 

Offline Taser

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion and More -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2014, 12:42:05 am »
+1
As if 170 isn't an investment, wm to use the arbalest is an investment, It may not be enough to statisfy your definition of "investment" but it is still an investment. Just increase the usefulness of WPF and decrease the usefulness of no wpf. If all you are worried about is people picking them up and being "effective" with 1 wpf.  The damage is mediocre at best if you have any armor on at all. Athletics are needed as well so we can reload more than once or twice. I have yet to see a "Strength" xbow build be overly effective.

I can name maybe 4-5 notable Arb users NA side (That are dedicated builds). I have no idea what EU looks like they always seem to have an abundance of range period.

This is just my opinion- I think they went about the wpf change all wrong in the first place, instead of giving everyone more or the same amount of WPF they just needed to make WPF actually mean something so people feel the need to invest more wpf in the second proportions of their hybrid builds.

Arb users can't kite very effectively if one single enemy chases you... You will not ever be able to reload. Most of the time when this happens to me on siege I just run for the nearest teammate or for awhile if they dont let up I jump from a high place. I guess you could say I'm suicidal.
 


I can confirm the bolded. I've seen it multiple times. It is funny.

Also desire.. who else is there that uses arb well besides you and phan? I don't think phan even uses the arb anymore either. I might be forgetting some people though but I can't think of them.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2014, 05:49:16 am »
-1
Something that could be reasoned to be realistic would be to tie Reloading speed to strength.

You can be accurate but will shoot extremely slowly. *Slower than now
OR
Pump up your char with strength, but sacrificing lots of accuracy for reloading speed.

OR
Just put higher STR requirements on xbows. You should be gorilla to use the heaviest crossbow around.

I suggest 24 str for arbalest.

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Offline Taser

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2014, 06:12:22 am »
+4
Something that could be reasoned to be realistic would be to tie Reloading speed to strength.

You can be accurate but will shoot extremely slowly. *Slower than now
OR
Pump up your char with strength, but sacrificing lots of accuracy for reloading speed.

OR
Just put higher STR requirements on xbows. You should be gorilla to use the heaviest crossbow around.

I suggest 24 str for arbalest.

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Had you said 18 str for arb, maybe. But 24.. ok bro. 24 str to carry and load an arb but a great maul, the heaviest 2h, is 20.

No.

An extra skill or something to up the need for crossbow skill sink. Fine, if it can be implemented well. But the above suggestion? lol.
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Offline Nightingale

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion and More -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 06:32:38 am »
0
Also desire.. who else is there that uses arb well besides you and phan? I don't think phan even uses the arb anymore either. I might be forgetting some people though but I can't think of them.

I honestly just said 4-5 because I can only think of 3 so I put 4-5 to give me some room to be off a bit. Sorry if I do forget someone.

Phantasmal - No longer uses arbalest because its just not a very viable weapon.
dBrooks - His main is still uses an Arbalest but he mostly plays on alts now.
Desire - Stubbornly refuses to give up ancient Arbalest.
I'm sure there are at least 2 others that play "frequently" and are notable.

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion and More -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2014, 11:20:10 am »
+1
I honestly just said 4-5 because I can only think of 3 so I put 4-5 to give me some room to be off a bit. Sorry if I do forget someone.

Phantasmal - No longer uses arbalest because its just not a very viable weapon.
dBrooks - His main is still uses an Arbalest but he mostly plays on alts now.
Desire - Stubbornly refuses to give up ancient Arbalest.
I'm sure there are at least 2 others that play "frequently" and are notable.


Oh god, I'm breaking out in sweats at the mention of dbrookz, I forgot about that headexploding aim bot!
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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2014, 02:03:48 pm »
-1
Had you said 18 str for arb, maybe. But 24.. ok bro. 24 str to carry and load an arb but a great maul, the heaviest 2h, is 20.

No.

An extra skill or something to up the need for crossbow skill sink. Fine, if it can be implemented well. But the above suggestion? lol.

Basically, xbowers will not take more STR than they need to use their weapon. My suggestion would of course kill the long range snipers (What a tragic loss..), but a shotgun-like STR xbower is still a class to be feared.

If you would like to snipe, you should just take a lighter xbow than the arbalest.

Hiding in a bush and doing 1-shot kills never required any skill anyway.
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Offline En_Dotter

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2014, 04:13:46 pm »
0

Hiding in a bush and doing 1-shot kills never required any skill anyway.

Jesus man... You need a sharp eye to find a good bush... Its an amazing feat to achieve that...
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Offline Taser

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion and More -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2014, 08:20:06 pm »
0
Oh god, I'm breaking out in sweats at the mention of dbrookz, I forgot about that headexploding aim bot!

I did too. Heh.

Basically, xbowers will not take more STR than they need to use their weapon. My suggestion would of course kill the long range snipers (What a tragic loss..), but a shotgun-like STR xbower is still a class to be feared.

If you would like to snipe, you should just take a lighter xbow than the arbalest.

Hiding in a bush and doing 1-shot kills never required any skill anyway.

And 24 str is not the way to do it. The dedicated arb users only go to 15 so they can use the arb yes. But they pour skill points into wm to get the wpf so they can be accurate. It takes a lot of wpf to get it really accurate. They are dedicated to it and this destroys pure arb builds to make it 24.

18 would not nor would a skill sink of steady hands. I actually understand why that makes some sense especially with the heavier xbows. I'd be alright with the steady hands thing tbh. It'd make it so crossbows would take a long time to reload without the skill. No problems there. Not sure how to implement the skill well though but that'd start with how long it should take to reload a crossbow without wpf and this skill and then go from there. You'd need data from how long it takes to reload crossbows now with certain wpf lvls and the different crossbows to see where it'd work.

Using an stf, making it 24/15, the reverse of the usual pure arb build is, I get a max of 139 wpf which is considered average accuracy at best. I think desire would say that at least 180 or higher wpf is needed to be accuracte. Desire would know better than me though on the details. And that was with 8 PS, 5 ath and 5 WM. I had 5 points left over. I could throw things around with less PS to see if I could grab another WM so I did. Got 6 PS, 5 ath, 6 WM at 24/18. 155 wpf. With no wpf elsewhere. A far cry from what a pure arb build is supposed to have wpf wise.

My point is just making arb 24 doesn't solve the problem and makes it worse. You want to wreck arb builds because you hate people who use them (the 6 or less people that actually do) then go ahead but just know a 24 str requirement for an arb is completely asinine. Its a quick fix that actually makes it worse.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 08:23:33 pm by Taser »
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2014, 09:48:02 pm »
0

A lot of this just sounds like extra work that may not end up the way the topic creator intended. Wpf differences do make quite a difference, you're probably just noticeably more skilled than those melee that you defeat. Accuracy tops out around 160-185 wpf, so that 30wpf isn't enough. It also seems to negate the WM skill?

This sounds interesting with another modifier for reload speed while keeping wpf mainly for accuracy. If a melee picks up a crossbow without this 'deft hands' skill, he'll be out of the battle for a while. If someone ever feels like implementing a skill requirement for xbow, this sounds like it will work.

yes WPF differences do make a noticeable difference in shooting of crossbows.  But that doesn't explain why of all the weapons in the game, crossbows are the only one without a governing skill to them. Melee has power strike, archery has power draw, throwing has power throw.  For balance sake, crossbows should also have a governing skill.

Your argument would basically work the same for removing PD from archery, or PT from throwing.  It doesn't make sense from a balance standpoint. 

I think the time for adding a skill requirement to crossbows has passed however, the time to do so would have been when people were getting free respecs. 

I honestly just said 4-5 because I can only think of 3 so I put 4-5 to give me some room to be off a bit. Sorry if I do forget someone.
Phantasmal - No longer uses arbalest because its just not a very viable weapon.
dBrooks - His main is still uses an Arbalest but he mostly plays on alts now.
Desire - Stubbornly refuses to give up ancient Arbalest.
I'm sure there are at least 2 others that play "frequently" and are notable.


Rohypnol also uses an arb and dominates with it (he said he only had 135 WPF also). 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 09:51:24 pm by CrazyCracka420 »
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