Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"

[Jarold]

Crossbows are simply too easy to just pick up and shoot with little skill investment. There needs to be a required skill for Crossbows besides just wpf. I know it's realistic but first we must make the game balanced then we can talk realism.


Taking out Crossbow WPF and putting in a Skill Requirement will solve this problem I think. Taking this skill will make you more accurate with your crossbow. I'll just call this skill "Steady Hands, or SH", and it will be governed by Agility. But before you get on me about it being governed by AGI therefore creating more kiting here's the second part to the idea.

Give all crossbows higher STR requirements. So that if you wanted to use a Heavy Crossbow you would need to have 18 str to use it. Therefore you couldn't get as much "SH" because you needed more strength making you less accurate but you would have a high damage output.

The Steady Hands skill i'm proposing should give you 30 wpf per level but it should be like the Horse Archery skill. So instead of every 3 points of AGI you will need 6 points of AGI to level up the skill. How much wpf you get per level is debatable and for now it's just there for a placeholder.

In short adding this skill and giving higher strength requirements for crossbows will make the high damage crossbows less accurate and the lower damaging crossbows more accurate. Giving you an obvious trade off of accuracy vs potential damage. It will also hopefully eliminate some of the kiting.




In reply to Grumbs comment I thought i'd post the little conversation here.

I think a lot of how xbows function is hardcoded, but if possible i'd just give them a difficulty like bows and use PD (maybe change the name of it to Ranged Acuity or something).

This doesn't change how it functions. It changes how accurate you are with a crossbow. It simply gives you crossbow wpf. Also changing a crossbow's STR requirement is easy.

I'm not saying you need SH to use a crossbow, but you will need it to be remotely accurate since it's the only way to get wpf in Crossbows.

I don't like the idea of something like a PD requirement, but a strength requirement I do like, with an optional skill requirement to be accurate. It makes sense to me because you need strength to pull the string back and then you will need a steady hand to keep your weapon stable and to actually hit someone.

You will still be able to pick up random crossbows this way but you won't really hit anything without luck or someone who's really close.

[Grumbs]

I think a lot of how xbows function is hardcoded, but if possible i'd just give them a difficulty like bows and use PD (maybe change the name of it to Ranged Acuity or something).

[Jarold]

I think a lot of how xbows function is hardcoded, but if possible i'd just give them a difficulty like bows and use PD (maybe change the name of it to Ranged Acuity or something).

This doesn't change how it functions. It changes how accurate you are with a crossbow. It simply gives you crossbow wpf. Also changing a crossbow's STR requirement is easy.

I'm not saying you need SH to use a crossbow, but you will need it to be remotely accurate since it's the only way to get wpf in Crossbows.

I don't like the idea of something like a PD requirement, but a strength requirement I do like, with an optional skill requirement to be accurate. It makes sense to me because you need strength to pull the string back and then you will need a steady hand to keep your weapon stable and to actually hit someone.

You will still be able to pick up random crossbows this way but you won't really hit anything without luck or someone who's really close.

[Sari]

I agree on adding more strength to xbows but really add something like PD(example) to crossbows? It is fair because throwing and archery do a lot more damage and are faster than xbows all together. Ok, hunting is way faster at reloading than longbow but short bow can reload even faster than hunting.

I been going 18/18 on my hx hybrid and Tydeus(or however you spell it) was talking about making the strength for xbows higher than they are now. I also love after retiring and getting to 6 strength so I can actually help my team out than being free kills for the enemy.

[Apsod]

I like the way the mod called Mercenaries handles crossbows. They added a new skill which increases reloading time for crossbows. To use crossbows you have to have skillpoints in this new skill the same way bows need PD.

[Algarn]

I like the way the mod called Mercenaries handles crossbows. They added a new skill which increases reloading time for crossbows. To use crossbows you have to have skillpoints in this new skill the same way bows need PD.

The reloading skill ?

Even if this mod is crap, I have to admit that skill requirement is a good thing, but people should be able to pick crossbows up, and get a medium low accuracy (enough accurate to kill a horse archer at 20 meters).

Of topic, they also got rid off PT requirement for throwing, like in real life, everyone can pick up a jarid or a throwing axe, but with a low accuracy and low damage. Just want to point it out , since it can be a good new feature. (Also, make it for shields, allow everyone to pick up a shield on the ground to protect, but without the benefit of a forcefield and some other speed malus).

[oohillac]

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The slot change damaged crossbow (over)usage a lot, things are fine now.

"Picking up a crossbow" is a negligent point.  a), the game isn't balanced around finding random weapons on corpses, and b) taking a crossbow without decent WPF investment is far less effective than you seem to think it is.

And the "accuracy vs damage potential" is ridiculous.  Balance around "missile speed/reload speed vs potential damage," using inaccurate ranged weapons is no fun at all.

[Jarold]

"Picking up a crossbow" is a negligent point.  a), the game isn't balanced around finding random weapons on corpses

It's not purely balanced around random people picking up crossbows, it's about the guys who have 170 wpf in crossbows without any investment besides a normal agi build that can kite and s-key out of all your swings while still dealing shit loads of ranged damage. If they wanted to they could be a strength build with decent accuracy and do massive damage in melee and ranged. I don't think any other class is capable of that since they all have to invest in some form of skill to use their weapons.

taking a crossbow without decent WPF investment is far less effective than you seem to think it is.

Taking a throwing weapon with low wpf isn't effective, and taking a bow with low wpf isn't effective. So why should crossbows be different? Also they can still achieve good accuracy with the Steady Hands skill. They just won't be able to use an arbalest or heavy crossbow if they wanted to be a super accurate sniper. They'd have to use a normal crossbow with low strength requirement so they could be a sniper with their agi build.

And the "accuracy vs damage potential" is ridiculous.  Balance around "missile speed/reload speed vs potential damage," using inaccurate ranged weapons is no fun at all.

That's even more ridiculous! There's no down side to using the best crossbow since they still reload extremely fast, they can hide behind cover, and they get a full 360 degree look around of their surroundings while doing so. Right now the higher damaging crossbows have the highest accuracy, highest missile speed, but the "slowest" reload speed. Which doesn't matter to any crossbowman who's played for 10 minutes.

[oohillac]

It's not purely balanced around random people picking up crossbows, it's about the guys who have 170 wpf in crossbows without any investment besides a normal agi build that can kite and s-key out of all your swings while still dealing shit loads of ranged damage. If they wanted to they could be a strength build with decent accuracy and do massive damage in melee and ranged. I don't think any other class is capable of that since they all have to invest in some form of skill to use their weapons.

With the slot change, odds are they have a one-slot weapon, so "s-key out of all your swings" doesn't really apply.  Taking enough WPF to shoot accurately dents melee WPF significantly, hindering their ability do do "massive damage in melee".  And a strength build crossbowman who also shoots with "decent accuracy" and has room left over for pure-build-equivalent melee skills?  Please.

Taking a throwing weapon with low wpf isn't effective, and taking a bow with low wpf isn't effective. So why should crossbows be different? Also they can still achieve good accuracy with the Steady Hands skill. They just won't be able to use an arbalest or heavy crossbow if they wanted to be a super accurate sniper. They'd have to use a normal crossbow with low strength requirement so they could be a sniper with their agi build.

Crossbows are different because they have long reload times.  Try using one with low WPF, you'll miss most shots and take forever to reload AND be limited to one slot for a melee weapon.  That is penalty enough.  Agility crossbowmen might get some nice sniper kills but it's not like they are overpowered in melee.  Lower PS than most dedicated melee, probably low IF, slowed down by the crossbow/bolts, and likely lighter armour.  At that point it becomes about player melee skill and not a class issue.

That's even more ridiculous! There's no down side to using the best crossbow since they still reload extremely fast, they can hide behind cover, and they get a full 360 degree look around of their surroundings while doing so. Right now the higher damaging crossbows have the highest accuracy, highest missile speed, but the "slowest" reload speed. Which doesn't matter to any crossbowman who's played for 10 minutes.

There are absolute downsides.  Reload times make a huge difference, and the heavier ones do not "reload extremely fast."  You might get one or two shots off at an approaching force with the Arbalest, and do high damage for those two shots.  With a Light Crossbow, you might get four or five shots, with appropriately less damage dealt per bolt.  This is balance.  What you said is basically what defines crossbows as a weapon.

From what I gather you got sniped by some crossbowman, hunted him down next round, and he ripped you apart in melee too.  Instead of making a "balance" thread, go invest a point in Shield or practice melee.

[Nightmare798]

Thy contracted Parkinson disease and can no longer useth thine crossbow.

[Jarold]

With the slot change, odds are they have a one-slot weapon, so "s-key out of all your swings" doesn't really apply.  Taking enough WPF to shoot accurately dents melee WPF significantly, hindering their ability do do "massive damage in melee".  And a strength build crossbowman who also shoots with "decent accuracy" and has room left over for pure-build-equivalent melee skills?  Please.

I beg to differ you need very little melee wpf at all to be effective. I love my strength build with 40 two handed wpf.

Crossbows are different because they have long reload times.  Try using one with low WPF, you'll miss most shots and take forever to reload AND be limited to one slot for a melee weapon.  That is penalty enough.  Agility crossbowmen might get some nice sniper kills but it's not like they are overpowered in melee.  Lower PS than most dedicated melee, probably low IF, slowed down by the crossbow/bolts, and likely lighter armour.  At that point it becomes about player melee skill and not a class issue.

I played a 15/24 crossbowman and I know what i'm talking about when crossbowman fight in melee. 5 PS, 8 ATH, 50 one handed wpf, warhammer, and medium armor. It was like heaven I would run away if I didn't want to fight the guy who came after me and then I would s-key him and slap him with my warhammer and do the lame knockdown kick maneuver. Easy win, especially against str builds. Also I was super accurate with my arbalest.

From what I gather you got sniped by some crossbowman, hunted him down next round, and he ripped you apart in melee too.  Instead of making a "balance" thread, go invest a point in Shield or practice melee.

I haven't played this week at all so it's definitely not a rage topic.

[oohillac]

I beg to differ you need very little melee wpf at all to be effective. I love my strength build with 40 two handed wpf.

I've seen you play, you get shit on by anyone who can block your first few swings.  Having high powerstrike/low WPF and getting kills is a matter of getting the first hit in a lot of the time. 
This is about crossbow-users.  They won't have a high enough PS to make up for the lack of WPF.

I played a 15/24 crossbowman and I know what i'm talking about when crossbowman fight in melee. 5 PS, 8 ATH, 50 one handed wpf, warhammer, and medium armor. It was like heaven I would run away if I didn't want to fight the guy who came after me and then I would s-key him and slap him with my warhammer and do the lame knockdown kick maneuver. Easy win, especially against str builds. Also I was super accurate with my arbalest.

Yeah, I played one too, and winning duels isn't a big deal in melee in regards to class balance.  This isn't balanced around duels.  In a larger fight, you are relatively ineffective compared to an equivalent pure-melee build player.  That is balance.

Super accurate with your arbalest?  And you were a 15/24 crossbow build?  Remarkable.

I haven't played this week at all so it's definitely not a rage topic.

Instead it is a random-thought-entered-my-head-how-could-this-possibly-not-work topic.  It doesn't work.

[San]

A lot of this just sounds like extra work that may not end up the way the topic creator intended. Wpf differences do make quite a difference, you're probably just noticeably more skilled than those melee that you defeat. Accuracy tops out around 160-185 wpf, so that 30wpf isn't enough. It also seems to negate the WM skill?

I like the way the mod called Mercenaries handles crossbows. They added a new skill which increases reloading time for crossbows. To use crossbows you have to have skillpoints in this new skill the same way bows need PD.

This sounds interesting with another modifier for reload speed while keeping wpf mainly for accuracy. If a melee picks up a crossbow without this 'deft hands' skill, he'll be out of the battle for a while. If someone ever feels like implementing a skill requirement for xbow, this sounds like it will work.

[Jarold]

I've seen you play, you get shit on by anyone who can block your first few swings.  Having high powerstrike/low WPF and getting kills is a matter of getting the first hit in a lot of the time. 

Uhhh, I rarely get on and only on odd hours and I've never seen you on when i'm playing. So I doubt you've seen me play except from a long long time ago when I played more.

This is about crossbow-users.  They won't have a high enough PS to make up for the lack of WPF.

Unless of course they use the abundant blunt and pierce weapons or their weapons stab. In my play through it felt high enough with only 50 wpf and 5 PS.

Yeah, I played one too, and winning duels isn't a big deal in melee in regards to class balance.  This isn't balanced around duels.  In a larger fight, you are relatively ineffective compared to an equivalent pure-melee build player.  That is balance.

Considering the fact that with the high athletics you can be the master ganker of the group fight. Which ensures the most survivability because you can run out of the group fight if it goes badly and still get hits in. Yeah but you may not be able to tank as many hits without a pure melee build but athletics makes up for it, just like power strike.

Instead it is a random-thought-entered-my-head-how-could-this-possibly-not-work topic.  It doesn't work.

Maybe, or you just don't want to see crossbowman have to invest anything to be a feared ranged and melee player. I don't know if you've noticed but HELLO you can still be accurate you just might have to invest a few of your precious skill points into your class. Sorry.

But maybe you're right, after all i'm not a balancer i'm just trying to spark ideas.

This sounds interesting with another modifier for reload speed while keeping wpf mainly for accuracy. If a melee picks up a crossbow without this 'deft hands' skill, he'll be out of the battle for a while. If someone ever feels like implementing a skill requirement for xbow, this sounds like it will work.

Just as long as they actually need to invest into a skill it's good enough for me. Just like every other class has to in this mod.

[Aleta]

This whole suggestion ties into cRPG's obsession with not allowing hybrid ranged/melee characters to be effective. There are currently two ways to go on this at the moment, which is Thrower and xbower. Archery is so imba that it's fair that it can't be used in a hybrid build as easily. When it comes to throwers, the accuracy is pretty random, the damage is low compared to the ammo you have and the range is crap. The xbow requires less investment in skill points, has high damage AND is accurate on long range. "Whaaat!?! Nerf NAOW!" However, the xbow takes forever to reload, in which time you are extremely prone to being shot by someone else, or attacked by someone in melee. The xbows are also pretty damn expensive, and the slot system makes your options of melee loadout very limited.

In my opinion xbows are fine. It's not like we have a gazillion xbowers. There are actually much more archers. Having the arbalest be 18 STR to use could force xbowers into being the "heavy alternative" where archery is the "light/AGI alternative". Not sure if that's really necessary though, but if one is supposed to make xbows require more investment, that would be the change I'd go for.