Internal bow balance

[Ronin]

My proposal for bows is the following:

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* The Bow with the best missile speed is horn bow, followed closely by Rusbow, later Longbow and Tatar bow. Now, there is little difference between bows in general.

* All bows have the same accuracy (after the [shown accuracy value] - [damage value]), the accuracy of old rus bow. That is except bow, short bow and long bow (don't forget high PD builds, they mostly use longbow)

* Long bow and Rus bow cost less (to destroy the image of high tier). Long and Rus bow are still the most expensive, but they are just a tiny bit expensive than horn bow and yumi.

* Low tier bows have a higher cost to make them. In short: the gold gap between low tier and high tier bows are lower.

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Short Bow
missile speed: 36 (-6)
weight: 2
accuracy: 96
difficulty: 1
speed rating: 62
thrust damage: 25 cut
slots: 1
2,871 gold (+2000)

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Nomad Bow
missile speed: 39 (-9)
weight: 2.4
accuracy: 96 (-5)
difficulty: 2
speed rating: 68
thrust damage: 23 cut
slots: 1
3,356 gold (+2000)

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Tatar Bow
missile speed: 41 (-5)
weight: 2.4
accuracy: 97 (-4)
difficulty: 3
speed rating: 65
thrust damage: 24 cut
slots: 1
5,787 gold (+2000)

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Bow
missile speed: 37 (-5)
weight: 3.5
accuracy: 99
difficulty: 4
speed rating: 58
thrust damage: 28 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
5,688 gold (+500)

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Horn Bow
missile speed: 42 (-2)
weight: 2.7
accuracy: 99 (-2)
difficulty: 5
speed rating: 59
thrust damage: 26 cut
slots: 1
7,896 gold

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Yumi
missile speed: 37 (-1)
weight: 3.2
accuracy: 101 (-2)
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 59
thrust damage: 28 cut
slots: 1
8,658 gold

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Rus Bow
missile speed: 41
weight: 3.7
accuracy: 103
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 56
thrust damage: 30 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
8,974 gold (-1000)

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Long Bow
missile speed: 40
weight: 4
accuracy: 104
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 52
thrust damage: 33 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
9,100 gold (-2000)

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Current Loom bonuses to all bows:

Speed          +1   +2   +2
Thrust (cut)      -   -   -
Missile speed     +1   +2   +2
Accuracy           -   -   +1
Weight             -   -   -


My Suggestion:
First : -1 damage from all non loomed bows

Speed          +1   +2   +2
Thrust (cut)      -   +1   +2
Missile speed     +1   +2   +2
Accuracy           -   +1   +2
Weight             -   -   -

Result: At masterwork the bows will gain +2 damage, and will be 1 point less accurate compared to now.

I tried to carefully plan it out. You will disagree with some of them (such as horn bow having the best missile speed), but I tried to keep every factor in mind. I didn't want to nerf archery in general. Low tier bows are just a bit worse than high tiers in missile speed now, which makes them good support weapons for their cost since they still keep their attack speed and damage. It is now also easier to dodge arrows. Plus these changes also doesn't make long bow easier to use, as tydeus wanted; and which I also agree with.

Last suggestion is to make +3 bows a bit better compared to +0 versions. At the moment, there is almost no point in looming them. Old difference was too huge, but there has to be at least some difference to make +3 bows worthwhile. Plus, archery has became the best class for the first gen because of this fact. Everyone want less archers right? This change will not render them useless, but will not encourage them to start as an archer character either.

[Leshma]

You have my support, if that means anything to you. Much better than current situation, that's for sure.

[722_]

I think everyone would just use long bow, Rus and horn bow, loosing that much accuracy and missile speed from lower tier bows would make them pretty poor option. plus an upkeep drop from long bow and rus would make them more appealing and you would probably end up with more complaints when everyone is getting hit by longbows. I think maybe keep the upkeep the same for higher tier bows and keep your price changes to the cheaper bows,so they cost more. then drop the speed rating of the lower tier bows by two or three points.

it may even be a good idea to revert the loom patch to be honest, i didnt really want to but there where less archers around when doing well required loomed equipment. having MW bows do the damage that bows do now, and regular do 3 less damage

[Ronin]

By the way, fixed the typo:
from

First : -1 damage from all non loomed bows

to

First : -2 damage from all non loomed bows

[Ronin]

Double post, but it was needed

You have my support, if that means anything to you. Much better than current situation, that's for sure.

Of course it means something. Why did you say so?

I think everyone would just use long bow, Rus and horn bow, loosing that much accuracy and missile speed from lower tier bows would make them pretty poor option. plus an upkeep drop from long bow and rus would make them more appealing and you would probably end up with more complaints when everyone is getting hit by longbows. I think maybe keep the upkeep the same for higher tier bows and keep your price changes to the cheaper bows,so they cost more. then drop the speed rating of the lower tier bows by two or three points.

I must say I didn't really thought of that, but imo it is not so nice for long and rus bow users to lose plenty of gold. They always seemed to cost too much for me (I used long bow for one gen).

Hmm there is also the fact that slow bows like longbow, I think, are much harder to use in battle compared to fast bows. Less attack speed means it is harder to time the attacks out, not really fitting the low tier bow users. If they want to change their bows it will most likely be: from nomad bow [1,356 gold] to longbow [9,100 gold], still a huge difference. Plus they will be attacking with a bow with less missile speed. I think this will encourage some archers to use long bows (typical trend behaviour), and will make half of those archers to choose another class after some time. What you explained might be a short term problem. But that's just a theory.

it may even be a good idea to revert the loom patch to be honest, i didnt really want to but there where less archers around when doing well required loomed equipment. having MW bows do the damage that bows do now, and regular do 3 less damage

I must say, non-loomed archery was really under powered and overall extremely annoying for the user. Maybe it was there for the greater good (less archers) but it also made some new people to lose interest to the mod (my cousin gave up playing because of that). It was a big difference in damage percentage. I think nerfing a little bit like this, might make people to change their class to something else. Similar to the trend behaviour I explained above. Again, that's my theory.

Overall a very nice feedback from you. I still consider your ideas It's also very good that a long bow user is not lobbying for his class/item.

[Rumblood]

This isn't internal balance, it is a flat out nerf to every 1 slot bow.

[Leshma]

See no problem there, it's one of the ways to reduce number of projectiles in the air. Still, there are wonderful 0 slot weapons, if that's the problem.

What needs nerfs are those tiny gimmick bows and class which use them, horse archers.

Edit: Don't tell me you're horse archer now, Gran_Pappy? Because I'll be hella disappointed.

[Ronin]

This isn't internal balance, it is a flat out nerf to every 1 slot bow.

It is impossible not to touch the other balance parts, when working on such a thing like this. Still, it is sad to see that you see this suggestion from a nerf-buff perspective (I know you use a nomad bow on horse). I tried to make every bow to have a reason to use, unlike before.

You may think your favored bow sucks now. I don't think you need to start lobbying as I think it will still be a good bow for a Horse Archer (everyone should stop lobbying anyway). It will effect ground archers that rely on that bow mostly. Either that, or nomad bow had to cost like 8k as it was practically a top tier bow before. I suggested it to be a fast, cheap and supporting bow (better attack speed means better chances of stunning opponents repeatedly). Excels at the task of a Horse Archer imo, supporting your teammates. Not that it does less damage now, it is only the projectile and accuracy that is effected (accuracy, being the same as the current rus bow. Not really a nerf.). A Horse archer can get up close, so missile speed doesn't matter all that much for certain playstyles. If that doesn't suit your playstyle, you are free to use a tatar or a horn bow. Or simply, use a +3 bow to have better missile speed (if you don't already).

I lowered the missile speed of all bows in general, so it will be easier to dodge for the classes that has to rely on it. About accuracy, now every bow has the same accuracy. I think it makes it a fair game for every bow user. I love it you see this as a nerf, while it actually does not necessarily aims to do that. It proves my point about many people rage-respeccing to change to another class. Lower missile speed --> better dodging. It unovaidably nerfs the class a bit, but can you say it is better for your arrows to be impossible to dodge from a whole game balance perspective?

[Kafein]

This isn't internal balance, it is a flat out nerf to every 1 slot bow.

Buffing 2 slot bows is not internal balance but a flat out buff to all 2 slot bows, too.

[Rumblood]

It is a very bad idea and one not thought through.

Lower missile speed will result in a shorter range. Shorter range means you don't need as much WM to be accurate. Strength builds with high PD will begin popping up like mushrooms. Damage done will increase. It also makes xbow's the only distance ranged with their speeding bullet bolts.

Then there is the speed bonus. Cavalry charging an infantry hill are going to start losing their horse in 1 shot. HA and HX will begin to kill lightly armored in one shot and do significant damage to plate. It will also break shields faster.

Hey, maybe you are on to something after all! I will lose some range but become a 1 shot demon instead. I reckon I'll take that. So go on ahead.

(everyone should stop lobbying anyway).

Everyone but you? Then delete this thread if you want lobbying to stop. Hypocrite 

[Kafein]

It is a very bad idea and one not thought through.

Lower missile speed will result in a shorter range. Shorter range means you don't need as much WM to be accurate. Strength builds with high PD will begin popping up like mushrooms. Damage done will increase. It also makes xbow's the only distance ranged with their speeding bullet bolts.

Then there is the speed bonus. Cavalry charging an infantry hill are going to start losing their horse in 1 shot. HA and HX will begin to kill lightly armored in one shot and do significant damage to plate. It will also break shields faster.

Hey, maybe you are on to something after all! I will lose some range but become a 1 shot demon instead. I reckon I'll take that. So go on ahead.

Everyone but you? Then delete this thread if you want lobbying to stop. Hypocrite 

IMO missiles are way too fast. What you describe may happen or not following a missile speed nerf, but in any case it can easily be rebalanced around lower missile speeds.

[Tydeus]

The lower the weapon's base projectile speed, the greater the increase to your own damage from an oncoming charge. So he's right about that. Of course, I don't think lower missile speed will affect the range players choose to shoot from, at least not significantly.

[En_Dotter]

Of course, I don't think lower missile speed will affect the range players choose to shoot from, at least not significantly.

What are u talking about???
The change of missile speed made Nomad bow the ultimate strategus siege weapon. The defender archers couldnt reach me properly with their long/rus bows, while i was hsing them from rly far. I would just pull the arrows from the ground in front of me afterwards and continue. Missile speed change really dictated the "power" of the bows during strat sieges. Too bad some factions didnt realize that on time.
Also this suggestion sucks balls in general. Short bow should never be that expensive... ITS A FUCKING PEASANT BOW. Big - from me. Next patch "Practice dagger 3442 gold"...

[Angellore]

Of course, I don't think lower missile speed will affect the range players choose to shoot from, at least not significantly.

What are u talking about???
The change of missile speed made Nomad bow the ultimate strategus siege weapon. The defender archers couldnt reach me properly with their long/rus bows, while i was hsing them from rly far. I would just pull the arrows from the ground in front of me afterwards and continue. Missile speed change really dictated the "power" of the bows during strat sieges. Too bad some factions didnt realize that on time.

The biggest problem is, devs knows nothing about archery itself. The proof of my thoughts, was the patch which increased missile speed by +6 to +10 in some bows, which is just way too huge difference. As archer, I feel the difference between every single missile speed - buffing bows by 6 or 10 missile speed at one time was just crazy.
I suspect devs also don't know higher missile speed means higher damage. Between Horn Bow +3 and Rus Bow +3 there is just slight difference in damage after patch (in theory 4 damage difference between those bows, after missile speed patch it feels more like ~1.5 damage difference), but between Rus Bow and Long Bow the damage difference is clearly noticable (in theory 3 damage difference between those bows).
It was fine before, but then they made this missile speed "patch", which broken everything. Like eg. Horn Bow had too few advantages before (1 slot, much higher shooting speed than 2 slot bows, better accuracy), they had to give it +6 mssile speed, so now it's also amazing bow to shoot on range. The difference of 6 missile speed is so huge, I can now aim properly from more than half a map with this bow, especially Horn Bow always had better accuracy than Rus Bow or Long Bow.
Compare of Long Bow vs Horn Bow accuracy - the difference is clearly noticable:
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So now Horn Bow has better accuracy, much better range and easier aiming, much higher shooting speed, and it's still quite cheap 1 slot bow. The only downside of using Horn Bow now is lower damage than Long Bow. But it's not that bad, after +6 missile speed buff, it has about damage of Rus Bow (which makes Rus Bow silly to use bow).
You also play as Horse Archer with lower tier bows, so missile speed patch buffed HA significantly, making it much easier to play class than before.
That's how people who knows nothing about archery "balance" bows.

[owens]

worst idea ever

My idea
Set a hefty turn rate limit on archers with bow drawn. This will significantly reduce their ability to shoot you in close quarters. the real problem with archery.

Simple approach

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Light bows dont damage you very much if you have any decent armour. Want to reduce the amount of arrows... reduce the amount of arrows in a quiver. Want to nerf high level archers and cav ranged set a maximum effective wpf (~160~). Make sure not tell anyone about it to reduce the chances of str archers appearing.

tldr; warband archery is broken