Poll

Who's responsible for lack of players?

Balancers
102 (26.8%)
chadz who left us to pursue career
66 (17.3%)
Exams and school
32 (8.4%)
Mod too old brah
113 (29.7%)
Other games
68 (17.8%)

Total Members Voted: 379

Voting closed: January 30, 2014, 05:28:47 pm

Author Topic: Number of players declining  (Read 19134 times)

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Offline Corwin

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #135 on: January 21, 2014, 01:52:51 pm »
+3
Ok, no more dedicated ranged. Next step we make it so that horses can only be used by mounted infantry for transportation. No more fighting on horseback. Maybe shields shouldn't be usuable in a fight either - only for sliding down hills.

Finally some sense.
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #136 on: January 21, 2014, 01:53:43 pm »
+5
Personally, I found that I was much more effective with a dedicated archer build when using a Long Bow, than I was with any weapon combination on my hybrid archer. Of course, I don't think either really need nerfed, just that they're both currently a bit too effective against high armor.

Horse ranged on the other hand, is problematic for a number of different reasons. It has a higher maximum potential to change the outcome of a round than basically anything else(think of it as rewarding high player skill more than any other class), which might sound good on paper, but when it rewards skill more than melee or ground archery, it has fowl side effects. Horse ranged, due to the fact that many of our maps make it excessively hard for melee to neutralize or even slightly reduce the effectiveness of these classes, let alone fight against them, takes away from the fun for most players. The majority of items and builds in this game are fun for the user but fun-neutral for everyone else, how it should be, this is what you expect; horse ranged on the other hand, is fun for the user, and un-fun for everyone else.

In a perfectly balanced game or a competitive setting or if our battle maps were all closed-in and didn't allow these classes to roam free, things would be different. Unfortunately we don't have any of this, and as many players enjoy open maps (4 houses on a random plains/steppe), and due to the size of our community, we pretty much only have a "pub" server, it's a very casual setting. If these things were different, there'd be no reason to object to horse ranged, because every round the appropriate counters would be in place. It's a realism vs idealism argument.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #137 on: January 21, 2014, 02:00:05 pm »
+1
Haven't played battle for awhile so I dunno what kind of archers play there. On siege we have Druzhina and Grey archers, combined with Quincy's. Most of them can't block. Actually they can block, but only long and slow weapons. They can't block warhammer, that's for sure.

Recent change to score is just another buff to pure archers. Since there's no decent blunt/pierce 0 slot weapon and for siege you need two quivers, archers are forced to use cut weapons. But with this change, cut damage isn't good for score. Also archers don't get as many points from standing near the fight and fighting themselves. Now it's best to stay at distance and shoot pierce arrows.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #138 on: January 21, 2014, 02:31:01 pm »
0
Haven't played battle for awhile so I dunno what kind of archers play there. On siege we have Druzhina and Grey archers, combined with Quincy's. Most of them can't block. Actually they can block, but only long and slow weapons. They can't block warhammer, that's for sure.

Recent change to score is just another buff to pure archers. Since there's no decent blunt/pierce 0 slot weapon and for siege you need two quivers, archers are forced to use cut weapons. But with this change, cut damage isn't good for score. Also archers don't get as many points from standing near the fight and fighting themselves. Now it's best to stay at distance and shoot pierce arrows.
And from this you can derive the argument that pierce is too effective, can't you? Remember, damage values weren't changed, the only thing that was changed, is that the score reward is now directly proportional to the actual damage you deal, rather than imaginary damage that gets soaked by armor. It's fascinating how you can mold player perspectives on effectiveness, through rewards alone.
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Offline owens

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #139 on: January 21, 2014, 02:43:14 pm »
+1
This might sound funny but the aus community has never been healthier.


The fact is in NA people are still playing to be dicks. HA is a class 20% play to RP, 70% play to be irritating and 10% play for the bitches. Xbow is the same a class that relishes the fish in a barrel feeling it gives the target.

Too many classes leave any other class defenseless and too many players take advantage of that. HA, HXB and Xbow are some of them.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #140 on: January 21, 2014, 03:02:41 pm »
+3
I think there is no use in blaming anybody. It's more or less a natural process.

And the real reason I think this mod is declining wasn't in this list. It was not the balancers, they only got blamed by everyone who doesn't understand anything of game design.

The problem is lying the the game mode (you knew this one would come) in combination with the one-dimensional system they implemented for equipment and skills. The upkeep system itself is incredibly bad, I still can't manage to find words after all these years. The moment it got announced I knew it was going to be bullshit, and I was right. But I never would have expected that people who are able to program all the amazing features cRPG has would be stupid enough to implement a marketplace, effectively removing their upkeep system and replacing it with nothing but endless grind and a lot of scamming. So bottom line we have a relatively uninspired skill system from M&B, almost no equipment limitation at all, and a system which heavily favorizes clan stacks.

If cRPG would have a system where your items are always persistent and not limited somehow by the money you have, time you can afford to use them, and the performance on your team, and which would have a tradeoff between having good skills or good equipment or a mixture of both, and where the reward system would not be as retarded as the multiplier is, and instead be a mixture of rewarding your personal performance (not only kill wise) but also the performance of your team in a game mode which does not base only upon killing all enemies and thus heavily favorizing ranged and mounted classes, leaving melee infantry to be the fool on the battlefield, forcing the balancers to ridiculously nerf all other classes to give infantry not an absolutely horrible gameplay and still failing in the attempt, and being blamed by everybody for trying to fix something they have not broken...

*taking breath*

... then cRPG would have lived a bit longer, I presume. 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 03:05:48 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #141 on: January 21, 2014, 03:23:30 pm »
+3
The upkeep system has its uses. It does hit people in the pocket so you tend to get fewer of things you don't necessarily want to nerf outright. It allows for a bit more realism in the design, so if you want heavy armour to behave like heavy armour you could make it very expensive so you only really get a few of them per team etc. Otherwise you would need literal or class limits which I don't think they can do. I do like that theres a market and economy, it feels more like an RPG with things to worry about or plan for besides the current game session

Saying that though there is some arbitrary upkeep price attached to most weapons atm. We basically have a "trash" rank and a "decent weapon" rank were the upkeep is just a random number. Anything over like 4-7k is usually as good as each other in one way or another. I don't know if its worth changing much atm though, maybe reduce the cost on the more costly weapon types.

I really like Battle mode and don't really see why we should ruin a whole game mode just because people want to be "fair" and say that everything is balanced and should never be nerfed. We simply need a good counter to ranged classes that doesn't involve throwing or shooting projectiles, and we need to give good reasons to players NOT to play ranged. This can be upkeep, paying per shot, weight, no melee weapon (lol, imagine ranged get the same situation as melee do vs ranged)

We just need to stop pussy footing around the issues and get balancers with some wherewithal (balls) to do what needs to be done, without worrying about people who can't play without left clicking on guys from a safe distance
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Offline BattalGazi

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #142 on: January 21, 2014, 03:26:39 pm »
0
  • Unattended strategus issues, that made every round end with drama and whining.
  • Patching the previous patch that patched the previous patch's missing patch. Balancers got out of control and very hard to track
  • The "retirement of elders", I truly believe oldest players were tricked to leave the game with a couple of looms, as they found it the only way to get away from seeing their good old character investments are not worth playing anymore. I blame devs for this directly. You lost a good bunch of good and skilled players.
  • Too much hate about every other class forced devs to nerf the bumps they nerfed. I thought the hatred against ranged would stop when devs announced their range-free melee game, but apparently it didn't.

On a personal note:

ATM HA have insane mobility because of using horse and same shooting speed as foot ranged.
I suggest to nerf a bit bows speed rating while using on horseback. It have been done to HX, so why not to HA?
Being HA have only benifits of mobility compared to foot archers. I thing that taking arrow from quiver, putting it on string, draw and aim is harder while sitting on riding horse than on foot...
Check this one out Steeve: http://atarn.net/, you can learn more about asian archery; the thumb draw and how it enhances horse archery and foot archery speed. If you have questions, I can gladly help you as well, as I practice thumb draw irl ...


Offline Joker86

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #143 on: January 21, 2014, 04:20:14 pm »
+1
The upkeep system has its uses. It does hit people in the pocket so you tend to get fewer of things you don't necessarily want to nerf outright.

You can limit the amount of items other than by this upkeep system. And the balance of an item is (usually) not determined by its abundance. Having only one player use a laserblaster doesn't mean the laserblaster shouldn't be nerfed. On the other hand if everyone runs around with a Kuyak it doesn't mean the Kuyak is OP, it can have various reasons like looks, etc. (That's why I chose the Kuyak as example, since it's just in the "middle" of the rather linear armour line, and still overused. Stat wise it doesn't stand out so much that it would justify the amount oyu see on the servers).

In short: balance wise the popularity of an item has nothing to do with the balance. High popularity can only be an indicator that an item could be OP, but that's it. This doesn't give the upkeep system any benefit over other systems at all.

It allows for a bit more realism in the design, so if you want heavy armour to behave like heavy armour you could make it very expensive so you only really get a few of them per team etc. Otherwise you would need literal or class limits which I don't think they can do.

Again the upkeep system would not be the only one to limit that stuff.

My old suggestion was to have to buy your equipment budget with skill points, which means that if you extend your item budget that far that you can afford a heavy armour you can't exceed your power strike or athletics or weapon master skill. That way a guy with heavy armour just plays DIFFERENTLY than someone with light armour and high skills, but should be more or less on the same level. With the upkeep system you only need to be in a clan stack most of the time, own a fief or do a lot of market place trade (including the sale of a single loom point) and you are BETTER than other players on the same level. Which is BAD balance, imho.


I do like that theres a market and economy, it feels more like an RPG with things to worry about or plan for besides the current game session

Nothing against that, but it should not directly affect your performance ingame.

Saying that though there is some arbitrary upkeep price attached to most weapons atm. We basically have a "trash" rank and a "decent weapon" rank were the upkeep is just a random number. Anything over like 4-7k is usually as good as each other in one way or another. I don't know if its worth changing much atm though, maybe reduce the cost on the more costly weapon types.

This is what I was complaining about often enough. Since the upkeep was not enough to limit the items effectively, the developers started to balance the items in a way that those about three quarters up the quality ladder usually turn out to be the best choice, whereas the "top tier" items remain something rather "extreme" for specialized builds. If the limitation would be more strict than the upkeep system, you can make the items differ much more than now. If you would make the differences between good and bad items much bigger with the upkeep system, everyone would only use the best items or leech in rags to be able to afford using them some time. Which again is bad game design, imho.

I really like Battle mode and don't really see why we should ruin a whole game mode just because people want to be "fair" and say that everything is balanced and should never be nerfed. We simply need a good counter to ranged classes that doesn't involve throwing or shooting projectiles, and we need to give good reasons to players NOT to play ranged. This can be upkeep, paying per shot, weight, no melee weapon (lol, imagine ranged get the same situation as melee do vs ranged)

No, it can't. It's the gameplay itself what deterrs people from infantry and drives them into ranged. Unless the gameplay changes fundamentally nothing will change or help. Currently the gameplay feels like this: infantry has to run around all the time in the search of target to engange, while the only real targets where they have no problems engaging in are other infantry. The rest of the round is spent running around and constantly watching your back for archers and cavalry. On the other hand cavalry and archers can start engaging few seconds after spawning, and they can pick their targets and are much more flexible to react to developments on the battlefield WITHOUT having to stop attacking. Infantry is passive, the other classes are active. Unless this fact changes, the old problems will persist.

We just need to stop pussy footing around the issues and get balancers with some wherewithal (balls) to do what needs to be done, without worrying about people who can't play without left clicking on guys from a safe distance

As I said, it's not a balance issue at all. If there are still ranged nerfs needed to achieve balance and good gameplay, we should be at like 90% process, which means about 10% problems are left. But we have 100% of the old problems with ranged left, so what does this tell us?
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #144 on: January 21, 2014, 04:28:57 pm »
0
We just need to stop pussy footing around the issues and get balancers with some wherewithal (balls) to do what needs to be done, without worrying about people who can't play without left clicking on guys from a safe distance

Or we need balancers who tell users with outright retarded opinions that they are wrong and that they won't remove classes because of a hurt superiority complex.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #145 on: January 21, 2014, 04:43:43 pm »
+2
We just need to stop pussy footing around the issues and get balancers with some wherewithal (balls) to do what needs to be done, without worrying about people who can't play without left clicking on guys from a safe distance
Or we need balancers who tell users with outright retarded opinions that they are wrong and that they won't remove classes because of a hurt superiority complex.
Both seem like opposite extremes on the same spectrum that seem to be ignoring the fact that a middle ground even exists.

(click to show/hide)
Lots of good from this post. Unfortunately a lot of it isn't really feasible at the moment.
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Offline bagge

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #146 on: January 21, 2014, 04:50:59 pm »
+4
Final solution friends!

1. Create a cRPG league, run by a member of the cRPG staff, dedicated as Event Manager(s).
  • Create a fixed schedule for the league and make Sundays the official match day.
  • Make Sunday evening unavailable for Strategus Battles between 6 pm to 12 pm.
  • Matches should be played on official cRPG servers (dedicated to league only).
  • Playoffs. Depending on how many teams active (4-8) make the playoffs
  • Matches should be: 8v8, 4 rounds per spawn, 2 maps.
  • No class limits. Everything can be countered and stacking one class arent always the best option.
   

2. Shorter Strategus rounds. Make it less time consuming
  • Shortern the rounds to 3 months. Come on, nobody enjoy a round that last an entire year.
  • Cheaper equipment (except for high tier equipment)
  • Faster grinding
  • More "power" to R10, like transfering fiefs and let them control equipment/gold/troops transfers
  • Troop limits

3. Remove banner balance and implement a class balance system on the public servers (if possible).
  • Because EU1/EU2 is in fact public servers. If clans want to play together, they should do it in matches. If there's an active league with regulary matches there will be a reason to have practise matches so there will be plenty of opportunities to play together as a clan. Then there's also Strategus for some clans
  • If there's a class system there will fix a lot of problems on the public servers. Perhaps we'll see less whine about class balance
  • No banner balance would make it more fun for lonewolfs. It's extremely boring when a clan is stacking one team and completely raping the opposite team. That makes a lot of people leave the server as well, don't forget about that.

Matches and public are a whole different thing. People that are experienced should know this and imo there's no class that are rather OP in clan matches. Let public heroes be public heroes

In short, make the mod more competative. It's not fun constantly grinding looms and experience on public servers all day and maybe, just maybe people wont lose interest as easy like how it is today.

Well, one can always dream. :(
I hope you guys get some sort of sticky balls deseases and smell like my armpits, sorry excusese for nolife fucking cunts you are.

Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #147 on: January 21, 2014, 05:12:02 pm »
0
Why isn't there an option for "The Community" ?

It's mostly shit really.

Offline Phew

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #148 on: January 21, 2014, 05:29:00 pm »
0
I think there is no use in blaming anybody. It's more or less a natural process.

And the real reason I think this mod is declining wasn't in this list. It was not the balancers, they only got blamed by everyone who doesn't understand anything of game design.

The problem is lying the the game mode (you knew this one would come) in combination with the one-dimensional system they implemented for equipment and skills. The upkeep system itself is incredibly bad, I still can't manage to find words after all these years. The moment it got announced I knew it was going to be bullshit, and I was right. But I never would have expected that people who are able to program all the amazing features cRPG has would be stupid enough to implement a marketplace, effectively removing their upkeep system and replacing it with nothing but endless grind and a lot of scamming. So bottom line we have a relatively uninspired skill system from M&B, almost no equipment limitation at all, and a system which heavily favorizes clan stacks.

If cRPG would have a system where your items are always persistent and not limited somehow by the money you have, time you can afford to use them, and the performance on your team, and which would have a tradeoff between having good skills or good equipment or a mixture of both, and where the reward system would not be as retarded as the multiplier is, and instead be a mixture of rewarding your personal performance (not only kill wise) but also the performance of your team in a game mode which does not base only upon killing all enemies and thus heavily favorizing ranged and mounted classes, leaving melee infantry to be the fool on the battlefield, forcing the balancers to ridiculously nerf all other classes to give infantry not an absolutely horrible gameplay and still failing in the attempt, and being blamed by everybody for trying to fix something they have not broken...

*taking breath*

... then cRPG would have lived a bit longer, I presume.

This guy hit the nail on the head. The problem wasn't balancing or ranged or whatever; it was flawed game modes that were spread too thin combined with a crappy reward system. There should have been only one game mode, Conquest, and it should have been tweaked to perfection. Instead, your choices are now:

-Battle, spend the whole round chasing mounted ranged, then die and watch grass grow for several minutes
-DTV, mindlessly overhead bots
-Siege, still the best game mode, but victory/defeat is mostly decided by the map
-Rageball, never played it, but it sapped development resources that could have been used for a "real" game mode
-Strat, never played it, but the concept seems closer to single-player Warband than cRPG, and ditto above

Also, the multiplier+repair system is annoying: It should have been gold+XP for winning fights near objectives, coupled with a reward for winning the round. Upkeep should have been a fixed cost per minute, without the random and victory-dependent elements we have now.

Offline Perche

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Re: Number of players declining
« Reply #149 on: January 21, 2014, 05:42:22 pm »
0
I suggest, even though it's hard, to enhance the quality of the textures and to make the mod more visible on forums and in general in internet