Why do you nerf? Why that way?

[CrazyCracka420]

This game isn't rock, paper, scissors. Stats only show a certain side to the story. Devs need to observe and take part in the different classes themselves, not relly on stats that don't show the whole picture

or just listen to the same dozen whiners who refuse to change, have thin skin and constantly complain on the forums (over and over and over, all day every day).  which seems more logical?

Most people who play crpg aren't bitching and complaining on the forums about how broken the game is.  I'd say the incessant whiners don't even account for 1% of the total population of people who play the game.  Yet they seem to have a large influence on game play changes due to the amount of whine they put out.

[Baskakov_Dima]

This. Best example: "Turn-rate nerf". People whining over and over and over and over and over and over about like 15-20 people (or better: the weapons they were using) in this mod who were able to win situations of 1 vs 5, 6, or 8 or 10 and that EVEN with weapons like long spear or very big / slow polearms or 2 handed weapons.

All the people that complained about it were simply jelly because they sucked ass compared to those they were complaining about, and they blamed  animations/weapon stats/turn rate values for it, rather to just see how those players just are/were dozens of times more skilled than them.

But the voices of the whining masses always win, especially in cRPG.

Agreed totally

[Paul]

That's funny because it happened like this if I remember correctly:

cmp: iz make turn rate stuff nao
balancers: would be nice if individual weapon length, weight and type would determine turn rate because of realism
cmp: gib formular
*balancers gibs formular*

I don't remember the forum being involved in any way. We don't need the forum to fuck up stuff.

[HoboJoe]

I for one wouldn't want to see the old turn rate back. Go spin somewhere else, ballerinas!

[Gurnisson]

I for one wouldn't want to see the old turn rate back. Go spin somewhere else, ballerinas!

Because instant stabs are better?

[HoboJoe]

Not being able to spin makes stabs instant? I'm not quite sure I follow.

[Gurnisson]

Not being able to spin makes stabs instant? I'm not quite sure I follow.

They changed how the stab worked after they fucked with the turn-rate, making instant stabs and sky-stabs the new stuff to handle instead (they made it reach top damage much faster). I preferred stabs from the sides which weren't instant myself.

[Rebelyell]

If that is true, why do you fuck up working and perfectly fine things in the first place?

This game was alot more fun before the turn-rate nerf, it lost alot of it uniqueness and it lost its fluid fighting, which is now replaced by some unresponsive, sluggish and laggard hullabaloo rather than exciting fighting.

And I know that alot players, especially old my old friends, feel exactly the same.

I adapted a long time ago, so did everyone who loves this game/mod, but it was just an uneccesary and shitty thing to implement from you, devs. 

bulshit
lolstab is way around every mechanice in that game

in 1, 2, 3, 10 meters I will stab because i can, because abusing lortab lets me to land faster and stronger hits,
who give fuck about footwork when I can jump back and roflcopter stab someone behind me in 720 roflcopter combo

pike as weapon in 1v6 situation is bulshit

[San]

They changed how the stab worked after they fucked with the turn-rate, making instant stabs and sky-stabs the new stuff to handle instead (they made it reach top damage much faster). I preferred stabs from the sides which weren't instant myself.

This. I was even getting comments in ts that there weren't any instastabs and it was just my imagination.

[WITCHCRAFT]

The first thing I wonder is that developers rarely give boosts to any class, they normally nerf. It makes always sad when you see, that your favorite class is nerfed. Why not to boost classes, that are weaker?

You should read the past patch notes. Every single patch has positive and negative changes to a number of items and skills. They never implement a patch that only nerfs items.

The third thing. Admins ignore the fact, that some people don't ever go to the forum. Only developers of World of Tanks (Warplanes also) ignore the whine on the forum, and just gather statistics to make decisions whether to nerf, to boost or not to touch, and HOW. All other developers just mind the numbers and implement them.

Besides the fact that you said balancers don't read the forums (they do), balancing on stats alone is a terrible idea. There is a metagame outside of stats. The biggest example I can think of is the current horse archer/xbow situation. Even if they don't top charts and do better than enemy players, ranged cavalry is awful to play against as melee infantry. By the nature of their class they draw out rounds and lots of players will leave the server if a group of ranged cavalry starts "delaying" (they are engaging enemy fighters, but the rounds last forever due to the way ranged cavalry works). Even without getting damage/kills/points, they are having a HUGE effect on in-game play. Balancers are aware of this as well as the stats of items.

[HoboJoe]

They changed how the stab worked after they fucked with the turn-rate, making instant stabs and sky-stabs the new stuff to handle instead (they made it reach top damage much faster). I preferred stabs from the sides which weren't instant myself.

This might be nitpicking, but that's because they changed the stabs, not the turn rate itself. Why couldn't we have slower stabs and a turn rate cap?

[Gurnisson]

Because the thrusts would be a steaming pile of horseshit then

[Baskakov_Dima]

You should read the past patch notes. Every single patch has positive and negative changes to a number of items and skills. They never implement a patch that only nerfs items.

Besides the fact that you said balancers don't read the forums (they do), balancing on stats alone is a terrible idea. There is a metagame outside of stats. The biggest example I can think of is the current horse archer/xbow situation. Even if they don't top charts and do better than enemy players, ranged cavalry is awful to play against as melee infantry. By the nature of their class they draw out rounds and lots of players will leave the server if a group of ranged cavalry starts "delaying" (they are engaging enemy fighters, but the rounds last forever due to the way ranged cavalry works). Even without getting damage/kills/points, they are having a HUGE effect on in-game play. Balancers are aware of this as well as the stats of items.

I did not say, they don't read at all.

[Moncho]

The devs have data with what weapons are used the most and deal the most damage. I do not remember the post, but some time ago they even posted it on forums (before the greatswords rework, when 2h was dominated by 2 weapons).

Also, have you considered that you may be switching cause and effect? A class is becoming too strong, the devs see it, and are planning on doing something. The players also realise it and post on the forums (apart from the same old "I want this" who never change in their discourse), so the amount of posts with "nerf X" increase. And then a new patch is released, but it takes some time for it to be ready, so it happens after the abundance of posts, giving certain people the idea that they were what caused the reworks instead of the actual state of the servers.

[Kafein]

From an outside observer, it sure seemed like there was causation between the amount of whine threads and subsequent nerfs.  Not necessarily in the last 6 months, but sure as hell seemed that way in the 2 years before that.

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Also, balanced class statistics don't guarantee the game is fun to play. It's not currently possible to automatically assess whether the game is fun to play and fair for everybody. You have to rely on player feedback or direct ingame experience of the balancers to see what doesn't work as it should.

It is in my experience.  So most of the nerfs over the years just coincided with the most people whining and bitching on the forums over and over and over?  Most of the people who play the game (and most other games are the same way) don't read the forums, and even less share their opinions on the forums.  The loudest whiners on the forums shouldn't dictate what happens in game.  And they don't seem to until their bitching becomes so overpowering on the forums that there's dozens of threads and 100's of pages (mainly by the same 10-15 people) that it begins to look like a major problem for players.  Even though that's 10-15 people out of 100's who play the game.  Most people are able to adapt to what's going on in game, and don't feel that there's major imbalance between classes. 

I think this guy is spot on.

Would that "loud minority" thing be true, why do we not see more of you, complaining about others trying to improve the game ? Why do we see 10-15 people out of 100 complaining about game mechanics, yet we see 1 out of 100 complaining about those that complain ? It seems to me you are the even more vocal and even smaller minority of conservatives.

Also, was the game perfectly fine, it would be very illogical that 10-15 people would argue ranged needs to to be looked at, yet 1 or maybe 2 actually argue in the opposite direction.


Assuming half the complete population is "anti-ranged" and half the population is "pro-ranged" to represent a balanced game. Somehow, a greater proportion of "anti-ranged" would be vocal than "pro-ranged" ? Why don't we have very loud people saying ranged need buffs ?