Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Oberyn]

Russia would never give up influence over Moldova, fallen at the first hurdle. I do hope at least part of the Ukraine emerges from this as sovereign country. It's starting to really look like full annexation from the outside. Just a matter of time. It's not like Russia has anything stopping it. Maybe economic pressure will be enough to salvage at least some of the country.

[Leshma]

They were a minority in the country overall. They were a majority in the area of Kosovo, which has deep historical and cultural ties to the serbian national identity. That doesn't change the fact that like you said they were the obvious losing side in the war. Their most obvious patron was Albania, not exactly a powerhouse. And yeah, if NATO hadn't intervened, they wouldn't have won. They would have gotten ethnically cleansed.

Kosovo had autonomy, even then it wasn't that much connected to rest of Serbia. Serbia is pretty centralized country. Besides Vojvodina (another case of autonomy), Belgrade is pretty much the only place in Serbia worth living in, rest is just poor like Albania. Whole serbian national identity thing on Kosovo is bullshit and a myth. It is always an excuse but no one really believes in it.

I don't believe their patron was Albania. They are too poor to finance wars. Just like in civil war in Bosnia, support for muslim jihadist came from Iran and Saudi Arabia. They send the guns, money and support in form of their best mercenaries already proven around the world. That is why Vatican state never acknowledged Kosovo as independent state, because they see it as a part of muslim expansion in Europe which is what they truly believe in.

Also, don't think Milosevic's idea was ethic cleansing. He was a dictator who only cared about support. Obviously, he wanted to reduce numbers of albanian majority in Kosovo that way hurting future of guerrilla movements. But what I believe he really wanted to achieve with mass killining of civilians is to frighten albanians, showing them what could happen to them if they don't convert to his side and support him with votes. Bear in mind that at time he wasn't caring about anything nationalists wanted to hear and see, he just wanted to stay in the saddle for years to come. Nationalists in Serbia denounced him years ago before Kosovo thing happened, they even protested against him while supporting Chetnics.

You'd be surprised. That is the reason some serbs have gone to fight in Ukraine. It is perceived as some sort of payback for NATO actions in Serbia, which was a crime against "slavdom". Russia has been holding a grudge over what happened in Serbia for quite some time.

Some is right word, like no more than a dozen. While many Serbians are into that nationalist bullshit, most of them will never again participate in war because they felt it on their skin. Just barking, nothing more. And Russia isn't holding a grudge, they don't give a flying fuck about Serbia. They used the siltation as leverage. If they cared, they would defend Serbia from Nato in 1999.

[Oberyn]

Kosovo had autonomy, even then it wasn't that much connected to rest of Serbia. Serbia is pretty centralized country. Besides Vojvodina (another case of autonomy), Belgrade is pretty much the only place in Serbia worth living in, rest is just poor like Albania. Whole serbian national identity thing on Kosovo is bullshit and a myth. It is always an excuse but no one really believes in it.

I don't believe their patron was Albania. They are too poor to finance wars. Just like in civil war in Bosnia, support for muslim jihadist came from Iran and Saudi Arabia. They send the guns, money and support in form of their best mercenaries already proven around the world. That is why Vatican state never acknowledged Kosovo as independent state, because they see it as a part of muslim expansion in Europe which is what they truly believe in.

Also, don't think Milosevic's idea was ethic cleansing. He was a dictator who only cared about support. Obviously, he wanted to reduce numbers of albanian majority in Kosovo that way hurting future of guerrilla movements. But what I believe he really wanted to achieve with mass killining of civilians is to frighten albanians, showing them what could happen to them if they don't convert to his side and support him with votes. Bear in mind that at time he wasn't caring about anything nationalists wanted to hear and see, he just wanted to stay in the saddle for years to come. Nationalists in Serbia denounced him years ago before Kosovo thing happened, they even protested against him while supporting Chetnics.

How do you think ethnic cleansing works. It's not about literally destroying a group of people. That's just plain genocide. It's all about massacres and random acts of violence driving the majority of civilians who just want to live their lives in peace to refugee status, driving them away. Do you honestly think targetting a group with such actions was just a way of "getting their votes"? What? Was there a group of pro-serb albanians I never heard about, driven to support by fear?

[Oberyn]

Kiev

You were wrong btw, my bet was Odessa, you own me a loom now.

[Leshma]

How do you think ethnic cleansing works. It's not about literally destroying a group of people. That's just plain genocide. It's all about massacres and random acts of violence driving the majority of civilians who just want to live their lives in peace to refugee status, driving them away. Do you honestly think targetting a group with such actions was just a way of "getting their votes"? What? Was there a group of pro-serb albanians I never heard about, driven to support by fear?

Yes, I believe that was the case. Just like drug lords in Mexico. They come in the village, brutally torture and murder almost everyone, leaving a few to tell the tale. Inducing fear in larger area, gaining support and loyalty.

[Dark_Blade]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confabulation

Autists can't differentiate 2 things. Rainman in crpg community?

there are 26 letters in english alphabet. how many words in the english language?

situations are different because of MANY reasons but they are basiclly the same at almost everything. if you are differentiate them - at some point you are right but you are far from the source. seems its totaly ungettable for you and for some people else on this forum.I wont say that you are retard or something like this. anyway you have to live with it even without understanding of it.

[Oberyn]

Yes, I believe that was the case. Just like drug lords in Mexico. They come in the village, brutally torture and murder almost everyone, leaving a few to tell the tale. Inducing fear in larger area, gaining support and loyalty.

And a bunch of the population fleeing to areas that are not warzones. Which is why I'd classify a lot the immigration to the US from Mexico as refugees, even if they are not officially.
And that completely ignores the ethnic aspect, which is not present at all in your example. It's kind of the main aspect when taking about ethnic cleansing. If drug cartels were specifically targetting nahuatl speakers or something, you might have a point. But their violence is a lot more indiscriminate and pragmatic.

[Vovka]

You were wrong btw, my bet was Odessa, you own me a loom now.

u are not good enough to have my looms ) and i talked about where will be russian army next and not "pro-russians"

[Oberyn]

Because the two are completely separate, of course. How long before russian army intervenes to defend poor oppressed pro-russians? Evil ukrainian chocolate chip cookies just killed a bunch of russian martyrs. I don't give it much time.

[Leshma]

They'll just send more and better equipped unmarked troops. Don't think they'll announce war against Ukraine, not after this much effort trying to hide it.

[Xant]

If I were Putin, I'd wait until the Ukrainian military eventually fucks up somehow and kills civilians/prisoners/whatever and use that as my casus belli. All Russia has to do is keep the "protests" going and when they're armed like that, mistakes will happen.

[Leshma]

You're saying it like NATO cares about that. Like they'll approve Russia doing anything because Ukraine army fucked up. Cards are on the table, sides are known, no ones cares what organizations like Human Rights Watch and OSCE have to say in the matter. Unless it's going in their favor.

There is no coming back to previous stage, Russia will never be western partner anymore. They will either "win" or become slaves. More likely the latter.

Putin isn't playing his little game to impress western world. He's doing it to show rest of the world or how we call it, third world that he isn't the bad guy. He wants support from countries like China, India, Iran, Brazil. Currently he just wants to see west in flames, and it is mutual.

[Butan]

There is no coming back to previous stage, Russia will never be western partner anymore. They will either "win" or become slaves. More likely the latter.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this part must be tempered a bit    even in the cold war era there was some minor partnership and non-military "neutral" competition. Ukraine events is an opportunity for the two blocks to "tabula rasa" and go on a new base, but it wont necessarily be a return to the cold war, or a war. Even if it is, it could be a short feud.

At the moment, both USA and Russia have stated that they are "not ready to intervene military". Of course, It could change in a matter of hours/days, relative to how Ukraine deals with their own predicament.

[Leshma]

Tempered? It's just my opinion based on what I've seen/read. It would be for the best to stop this madness and go back to usual business but it seems impossible at this point. War in Ukraine has already started and it seems Putin will send Ramzan Kadyrov to "protect" pro-russian "activists". Which means that eastern Ukraine will soon become hell on earth.

[Boerenlater]

when will the nuking start?