Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DaveUKR]

US fears Russia because it offers an alternative that China is not. For exemple : Snowden and world spying. Russia can counter US spies and can spy themselves ( Nuland phone chat). They can provides advanced weapons to countries like Syria or Iran. They offer an alternative internet without censorship (RuTube etc.), they can supply gas and oil to countries like China or India, they can launch military satellites. They try to avoid dollars paiements in international exchanges etc.
A strong Russia is a threat to the US world hegemony.
And they are already at war. When Visa and Mastercard initiated an embargo on Russia, Putin decided to create a new credit card system.
You can also remember when EU took the russian cash in Cyprian banks...
And, finally, Russia can now propose some "counter-propaganda" medias, as never seen before , since at last, 20 years.

Snowden is the most overrated thing happened in last years. Like what did he reveal? Only obvious things. Also alternative internet without censorship? There were made several laws that censor internet in Russia during last year or two which led to a lot of butthurt among website owners so they moved their websites out of RU domain area. Also Rutube is just bad, always a lot of technical issues.

Maybe you look it from your perspective. But from my perspective Russia is the only active threat for Ukraine now. We can discuss things a lot like how USA/EU/NATO threaten Ukraine and you might be even right about it but who cares about that if we have Russia grabbing territory now? Just put it to a simple analogy: Imagine that I'm Ukraine. I face a burglar but not a regular one, this one is special. His name is Russia, he's stabbing me with a knife and tries to get my kidney, 3 fingers and an eye. He doesn't really care if I will survive or not, he just wants that. Meanwhile he keeps repeating to me that I'm his brother and that these organs are not really mine because our parents give it to me so I bear them but I can't really hold them if they don't want to be inside of me. I can't fight because I don't have a knife and I was ill and still didn't rehabilitate, but now I've lost a lot of blood and a couple of fingers and still bleeding. And here comes Tovi saying "Dude, these American cigarettes will kill you one day". Even if I'll agree with you that the west is an enemy of Ukraine - would it change anything? Would it change the fact that Russia annexed Crimea and tries to destroy Ukraine? No. And this is what concerns me, not your conspiracy theories or whatever else.

[BASNAK]

They offer an alternative internet without censorship (RuTube etc.)

If people can spout out shit like you on a daily basis then our internet isn't censored.

[Leshma]

Snowden is the most overrated thing happened in last years. Like what did he reveal? Only obvious things.

Now it is obvious, when we know it for certain. But without Wikileaks and Snowden, there is no way you could state it as obvious without being labeled as conspiracy freak.

[Kafein]

One day there should be laws about economical wars, because today in this globalized world, you are forced to be in the global market, and to use the global market as a tool of war shouldnt be a unilateral decision without trials based solely on ideological and geopolitical stances, since people are in the balance too.

That will come eventually, but not in a multipolar world.

[Tovi]

Snowden is the most overrated thing happened in last years. Like what did he reveal? Only obvious things. Also alternative internet without censorship? There were made several laws that censor internet in Russia during last year or two which led to a lot of butthurt among website owners so they moved their websites out of RU domain area. Also Rutube is just bad, always a lot of technical issues.

Maybe you look it from your perspective. But from my perspective Russia is the only active threat for Ukraine now. We can discuss things a lot like how USA/EU/NATO threaten Ukraine and you might be even right about it but who cares about that if we have Russia grabbing territory now? Just put it to a simple analogy: Imagine that I'm Ukraine. I face a burglar but not a regular one, this one is special. His name is Russia, he's stabbing me with a knife and tries to get my kidney, 3 fingers and an eye. He doesn't really care if I will survive or not, he just wants that. Meanwhile he keeps repeating to me that I'm his brother and that these organs are not really mine because our parents give it to me so I bear them but I can't really hold them if they don't want to be inside of me. I can't fight because I don't have a knife and I was ill and still didn't rehabilitate, but now I've lost a lot of blood and a couple of fingers and still bleeding. And here comes Tovi saying "Dude, these American cigarettes will kill you one day". Even if I'll agree with you that the west is an enemy of Ukraine - would it change anything? Would it change the fact that Russia annexed Crimea and tries to destroy Ukraine? No. And this is what concerns me, not your conspiracy theories or whatever else.

Ok, I understand your point of vue. But, before Maidan affair, did Russia really threatened Ukraine ?
I just try to warn about Western goals. They (we...) don't want to help Ukraine. They want to use it against Russia, and loot his wealth. Maybe 10% of Ukrainians will become richer, others will only be our cheap labor slaves.
And, obviously, some Ukrainians are ok to become russians. You may think they are stupid, but only future will tell.

[DaveUKR]

Ok, I understand your point of vue. But, before Maidan affair, did Russia really threatened Ukraine ?
I just try to warn about Western goals. They (we...) don't want to help Ukraine. They want to use it against Russia, and loot his wealth. Maybe 10% of Ukrainians will become richer, others will only be our cheap labor slaves.
And, obviously, some Ukrainians are ok to become russians. You may think they are stupid, but only future will tell.

Yes, before Maidan Russia threatened Ukraine multiple times, including Crimea. Tuzla conflict in 2003 (note that this happened years before Yuschenko became a president) just as an example. Russia seriously threatened Ukraine at least once in 2 years in 2000's. I was a teenager when this conflict in Tuzla took part but I clearly remember how Ukraine mobilized some forces and prepared the coast of Crimea for a possible invasion there. Of course it was more like a defensive show but still. Also 2008 during Russia-Georgia conflict Russia threatened Ukraine for helping Georgia and etc. I can't even count how many times Russia pressured Ukraine economically or with gas.

About Western goals. I clearly understand that and in this case I agree with you that West doesn't actually want to help Ukraine that much (economical and political sanctions = yes, military help = no). About cheap labour slaves: Ukrainian workers are not against it. A lot of Ukrainians work in Europe now and Ukraine is actually a good working power, Ukrainians work hard here so why not work for more money? I mean Ukraine could become a powerful country like Germany with an appropriate effort (huge territory, good climate, 45 millions of people, connected to sea, great ground and geographic position etc.).

About Ukrainians becoming Russians. Yes, only "some of them". I think that the only region that had a majority of people who wanted to join Russia was Crimea. But what about those who don't want? I don't want to call all those people who want to become a part of Russia stupid. Because most of them want to become citizens of Russia not because it would be better for them economically/politically etc. They just want to live in their homeland and for those people it's Russia. The only stupid people are those who believe that it would be much better in Russian occupied territories of Ukraine. Also, Crimea already suffers a lot because of lack of water. There is a collision between Ukraine and Crimea now as they can't make a contract. Ukraine is not against it but they will not make a contract with them as a part of Russia. On the other hand Crimeans don't want to make a deal as a part of Ukraine and don't pay their debts for water. So basically it's a circulus vitiosus. Current Crimea receives about 5% of water they used to receive. Also problems with electricity. So it's just all what I predicted and even described in this thread earlier.

[Christo]

One soldier dies from improvised bomb explosion in Donetsk region

IED-s? Seriously..

[Vovka]

One soldier dies from improvised bomb explosion in Donetsk region
IED-s? Seriously..

yep ukranian army use ied and improvised tanks from tractors

[Kuujis]

One soldier dies from improvised bomb explosion in Donetsk region

IED-s? Seriously..

Didn't you know? Locals are trained in explosive preparation and diversionary tactics. Mightily well trained.

[Christo]

Didn't you know? Locals are trained in explosive preparation and diversionary tactics. Mightily well trained.

Proof check please.

By locals you mean the separatists, right? I imagined a grandma learning how to make an improvised bomb after reading that.

[Molly]

[...] I imagined a grandma learning how to make an improvised bomb after reading that.

Which isn't that far fetched considering that you find manuals on literally anything in the internet nowadays, including IEDs.

(click to show/hide)

...or it was really a grandma who had been some guerilla chocolate chip cookie-fighting partisan chick back in the days

[Kuujis]

Proof check please.

By locals you mean the separatists, right? I imagined a grandma learning how to make an improvised bomb after reading that.

Proofs... pft... If you do not believe me, you are WITH THEM    and I will TELL YOU NOTHING!

ALL locals want to separate from the fasccisscsststss regime in Kiev, thus by definition they ALL are separatist. Thus by your standards - yes, even grandmas will be doing this. Although, given that at least SOME of them fought in WW2 - I think we may be in for a nasty surprise...

Also </irony>.

In reality - this is what the special forces do, when there is no popular support for them on the ground and they have to sow chaos. Somehow I do not see separatists rushing to bomb their (possibly would be former) fellow countrymen eagerly given the indecisiveness/restraint being current status quo.

Even if the final goal was something different, economical sanctions always aim where it hurts, where there is money, and a lot of people around Putin have money.
If they had something else in mind, they would still do the same => diplomatically and economically isolating your enemy. It cost almost nothing and it can hurt as much as wars if done right.

One day there should be laws about economical wars, because today in this globalized world, you are forced to be in the global market, and to use the global market as a tool of war shouldnt be a unilateral decision without trials based solely on ideological and geopolitical stances, since people are in the balance too.

Lets see... laws and agreements need to be followed. Right? Rewinding to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances, stopping there for a while... fast forward to 2014 Crimea... fuck yeah, agreements and laws DO work, when there is russia involved I say... good for you for having such good ideas. Commendable.

[Christo]

Aaaand we just hit another loophole.

Proofs... pft... If you do not believe me, you are WITH THEM    and I will TELL YOU NOTHING!

Asking for proof doesn't automatically mean that I don't believe you. Quite on the contrary, actually.

 Find the part where I said that you are incorrect. Good luck.

[Kuujis]

Some fresh stuff from Crimea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhXTqcOE800
Locals rally in a PRO-RUSSIAN meeting, a cop from moscow arrives and tells them to disperse, they tell him roughly "its not moscow, we don't need you guarding us", he then calls Berkut support and promises to bring in organizers for questioning later.

Welcome to reality,
oops... there goes gravity russia.

Aaaand we just hit another loophole.

Asking for proof doesn't automatically mean that I don't believe you. Quite on the contrary, actually.

 Find the part where I said that you are incorrect. Good luck.

I assumed we are having a nice little ironic exchange of jokes. You know... like Vovka throws here from time to time.

And I'm definitely wrong. Ask Butan

[BlindGuy]

/thread ffs this is a circlejerk.