Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Kuujis]

Last attempt at re-informing the dis-informed : garrisoned russian soldiers..... in russian bases in Crimea.....were already there..... before maidan.....

Take a deep breath, immerse yourself in the new information, and think about the possible implications (which doesnt all go toward innocenting Russia, mind you).

OK, lets dissect this:
1. Before the crisis there were around 10k troops there.
2. They were to stay STRICTLY in the base designated. Didn't happen.
3. ANY and all movements were to be sanctioned by Ukraine defence ministry. Didn't happen. AND putler can bark all he wants - defence ministry WAS available for contact and did NOT grant the right for movements.
4. The forces were INCREASED to 25k (or roughly that) - again - possible, but ONLY with explicit agreement by Ukraine.

So le hipster contrarian extraordinaire - what was is SPECIFICALLY, that you wanted to prove with your so called "point" ?

P.S. Numbers taken from my memory/ass - so feel free to correct me.

[Panos_]

Ironically enough, the retards who insult people who support Putin, are the ones who are on a witch hunt against "secret neo nazees" at this forum.    , clearly shows who`s the idiot/moron/stupid/lower iq.
 
I`d take Putin as a leader of my nation, every fucking day of the week. But since I am unlucky enough to be "ruled" by one of Merkel`s muppets, I can only feel jealous of Russian people.

[Kuujis]

Ironically enough, the retards who insult people who support Putin, are the ones who are on a witch hunt against "secret neo nazees" at this forum.    , clearly shows who`s the idiot/moron/stupid/lower iq.
 
I`d take Putin as a leader of my nation, every fucking day of the week. But since I am unlucky enough to be "ruled" by one of Merkel`s muppets, I can only feel jealous of Russian people.

I'm sorry, did you miss your last election? Do you have 146% of voting populace? Do you get fucked in the ass by putlers, who you can choose NOT to elect next time?

Also - clean up your fucking corruption and tax avoidance problems (and no, those are NOT government made, those are tolerated and caused daily by "citizens"), then come barking.

[Panos_]

Also - clean up your fucking corruption and tax avoidance problems (and no, those are NOT government made, those are tolerated and caused daily by "citizens"), then come barking.

Ironically enough, AGAIN, the biggest corruption scandal in Greece, was made by Germans, and Siemens to be more precise.

Sure, Greeks may tax evade and be corrupted, but it`s not like Germans are saints 

Here, educate yourself before you speak any more bullshit : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Greek_bribery_scandal

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No hate against German people, quitte the opposite, I like Germans a lot.

[Panos_]

Hold on, I just remembered another scandal made by the saints of taxing!!!


http://www.lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-the-submarine-deals-that-helped-sink-greece-.html

Much of the equipment comes from Germany, the country that has had to shoulder most of the burden of bailing out Greece and has been loudest in condemning Athens for living beyond its means. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has admonished the Greek government "to do its homework" on debt reduction.

THANK YOU MERKEL, FOR LENDING US MONEY, WITH HIGH INTEREST, SO WE CAN BUY BROKEN SUBMARINES FROM YOUR COUNTRY!!! 


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis


and in case you are dumb enough to understand simple facts.

Germany/France loan money to Greece with high interest ---> Greece buys weapons from Germany and France.

Muppets everywhere..

[Molly]

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You do realize that those deals came only to be cause Greek politicians were corrupted by bribes?
Yeah, guess they had no choice than to take all those shiny US dollars from those bad bad German businessmen, right?
I am not saying that those German businessmen aren't greedy bastards but I am saying that those Greeks were at least as greedy.
Deals always take 2 parties.

[Christo]

I`d take Putin as a leader of my nation, every fucking day of the week. But since I am unlucky enough to be "ruled" by one of Merkel`s muppets, I can only feel jealous of Russian people.

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[Panos_]

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You do realize that those deals came only to be cause Greek politicians were corrupted by bribes?
Yeah, guess they had no choice than to take all those shiny US dollars from those bad bad German businessmen, right?
I am not saying that those German businessmen aren't greedy bastards but I am saying that those Greeks were at least as greedy.
Deals always take 2 parties.

Read again my posts please, I`m not trying to make only the Germans bad.

But claiming that ONLY Greece is the corrupted country of EU, is retarded.

[Butan]

OK, lets dissect this:
1. Before the crisis there were around 10k troops there.
2. They were to stay STRICTLY in the base designated. Didn't happen.
3. ANY and all movements were to be sanctioned by Ukraine defence ministry. Didn't happen. AND putler can bark all he wants - defence ministry WAS available for contact and did NOT grant the right for movements.
4. The forces were INCREASED to 25k (or roughly that) - again - possible, but ONLY with explicit agreement by Ukraine.

Thats already a far more interesting response to my statement than the usual name calling, thanks for your input.

On that topic:
Russian troops inside Crimea was at 15k at the peak of Crimean crisis. 25k was the maximum allowed. They never exceeded it.


I would be interested in finding information on what was the exact legal aspects of the agreement between Ukraine and Russian:
- increase/decrease of garrisoned troops to be validated by the president of Ukraine? (remember, maidan removed the people of power in Ukraine)
- to be strictly garrisoned in the bases themselves, forbidden to move outside? How do they eat, drills and move from barracks to ports, in helicopters? And how do you know if they moved out or not?

Then if they really increased the troops without legal accord, and they moved out of their boundaries in Crimea, you still have to prove the final point : did they actually participate in the Crimean crisis?
The mainstream agreed on fact that "Russian did it 100%" is only the extreme opposite bullshit than "Russian did nothing, 100% innocent".

Sorry to weight you down with fact-checking so much, I would really enjoy having a neutral debate somewhere down this thread...




What is also interesting, is how when Crimean crisis started, all EU/US media titled "Russia is invading Crimea with troops" with footage of their men and equipment, even though those soldiers were garrisoned in Crimea because they have military bases under contract with Ukraine, thus most of them were already there.


One of the many non-cookie free world information laying around that will survive thanks to some people and their clever shortcuts with the truth.
Its far harder to prove that russian garrison participated in the crimean crisis than just going with the crowd and spouting things about the warmongering state of Russia and their fascist people, I will concede you this.

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The problem is that you state information that everyone here already knows (that Russia was allowed 25000 military personel in Crimea Russian bases), hence the people you are talking with believe that your point is not this known information but that you interpret this information in some way and use this interpretation as an argument, which they don't agree with.

If only that was true Kafein    you only have to read past a few pages to check that you're far from the reality.

Quick witty joke: (Xant not allowed!)

EU french media on maidan: brave citizen fight peacefully to overthrow corrupt and represive ukraine government, to form new legitimate one.

EU french media on eastern ukraine: ukraine government sending soldiers to retake controls of the cities that fell to the pro-kremlin terrorists.


Word for word 

[Tibe]

+1 Godwin Point

I see Putin as a real leader defending his country interests. Wich is very different from my own president, Hollande, who betray his people constantly.

Putin doesnt defend his country's interest. His defending his own and his corrupt buddies. Either his trying to put his own name on the map or rebuild an old empire that never really worked to begin with. Could be both. Kremlin doesnt give a single fuck about its people that live in foreign nations. It only takes advantage of them. Putins way of defending his country's interest is calling dibs on squarekilometers, which doesnt really do much good to anybody exept his superrich drinkingbuddies and they dont do jack for the country. They put it all in their pockets and use that money to fund businesses that are located in other countries.

They are even making a law that russians cant blog shit about Russia, or they get fined. Id like to see Hollande being this bad. Everybody is hating their country's primeministers and calling them traitors. Yours is no different. Its been hard times for EU and the primeministers are the ones taking the public beating.

[serr]

Butan, what are talking about?

Putin already confirmed that russian troops were capturing objects and blocking ukrainian military bases in Crimea to let fair referendum happen. There's nothing to argue about.

So yes, russian did it 100%, confirmed by Putin.

[Butan]

They are even making a law that russians cant blog shit about Russia, or they get fined.

I've also heard that russian schools are being converted in anti-terrorist cells and metal detector - x-ray - armed guards - walls + barbed wires to be added to all of them to make sure all kids are not inside enemy.
I've also heard russian are preparing invasion and heating up missile systems, with infrared mapping as proof.
I've also heard that russian are organizing trips to Ukraine to protest in the cities and that near to no native are participating.


If its not to be put in the "fake" category, I think yours and my informations still need some non-EU refining.

Butan, what are talking about?

Putin already confirmed that russian troops were capturing objects and blocking ukrainian military bases in Crimea to let fair referendum happen. There's nothing to argue about.

So yes, russian did it 100%, confirmed by Putin.

Did he now? And how has he explained that?

Also, do you think they were the only ones bearing uniforms and arms in Crimea?

[serr]

What is also interesting, is how when Crimean crisis started, all EU/US media titled "Russia is invading Crimea with troops" with footage of their men and equipment, even though those soldiers were garrisoned in Crimea because they have military bases under contract with Ukraine, thus most of them were already there.

Step 1: Maidan wins, Yanukovich flee to Russia
Step 2: Sevastopol refuse to recognize new rulers, elect mayor on rally, which they weren't allowed to do by contsitution, plus there were no real elections, he was basically appointed on rally by ~10k that were there. In addition to that new mayor was citizen of Russia.
Step 3: Leaders of maidan try to negotiate, without any results
Step 4: Russian troops captures administrative buildings, blocks ukrainian military bases

[serr]

Did he now? And how has he explained that?

Yes, he did, 3 or 4 days ago. Explanations - as I already said, to let fair referendum happen.

Also, do you think they were the only ones bearing uniforms and arms in Crimea?

Of course not, there was crimean self-defence, half consisted of former berkut and russians(not russian troops - cossacks and other russian patriots).

I've also heard that russian are organizing trips to Ukraine to protest in the cities and that near to no native are participating.

There are numerous proofs that among protesters there are really a lot of russians. Also was confirmed by russian foreign minister. Part about "little to no native" is wrong of course, I don't know ratio of russian/native protesters, but obviously signficant part of them are russians.

[Butan]

 


Must have been  in his long public interview, I still didnt listen to it.