Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Kafein]

How many times I have to tell you there is no good or evil. For a scientist, you sure believe in god.

They aren't evil, but they are indeed paid by USA to bring democracy to the world. However, every country is independent and has laws against such activities which ultimate goal is to replace legally elected government by so called revolution.

Proof that what they are doing doesn't work is the fact that after few years people realize they made a wrong move supporting so called young revolutionaries. I would always support real revolution, but these paid ones smell bad and leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Otpor is now called CANVAS.

Fakeing Revolution - OTPOR - promoting Capitalism under Leftist Guise

I do believe some things are more desirable than others. I certainly don't believe national sovereignty is one of those, as I view it as a poison against the solving real issues. National sovereignty implies national interests. National interests are very often contrary to the interests of everybody because most real challenges that we face today and will face in the future are some form of the tragedy of the commons. We have to create legitimate and democratic global power structures, and to me the closest thing to that are the EU, the US and the UN with all its spin-offs. If establishing those structures requires supporting rebels to topple tyrants, then I'm all for it, as long as the violence is kept to a minimum. As you said, foreign support doesn't mean foreign control. Supporting the opposition means giving a chance to existing movements, not creating them. In other cases, time will eventually do the trick.

What do you think people are who kill children and women by the thousands? People responsible for the Rwandan Genocide etc?

The byproduct of a classic Malthusian collapse ? Actually I'm somewhat with Leshma here. Human beings bar mentally ill know right and wrong, but none has superpowers preventing wrong to be done.

[Xant]

You don't need superpowers to not slaughter children?

[Leshma]

I do believe some things are more desirable than others. I certainly don't believe national sovereignty is one of those, as I view it as a poison against the solving real issues. National sovereignty implies national interests. National interests are very often contrary to the interests of everybody because most real challenges that we face today and will face in the future are some form of the tragedy of the commons. We have to create legitimate and democratic global power structures, and to me the closest thing to that are the EU, the US and the UN with all its spin-offs. If establishing those structures requires supporting rebels to topple tyrants, then I'm all for it, as long as the violence is kept to a minimum. As you said, foreign support doesn't mean foreign control. Supporting the opposition means giving a chance to existing movements, not creating them. In other cases, time will eventually do the trick.

I'm all for global government, but real global government where both of us are given equal chance from the birth to prove ourselves. I don't see that happening any time soon, looks to me more like USA is trying to sell globalization to enslave other countries to work for their cause, not global interest.

And I'm not defending my country, I don't even want live in this country, nor fix nor waste my time trying to pull impossible feats. In few years from now I plan to move to Canada.

[Leshma]

People with different norms and values which are as valid as anyone else's.

Different, sure. Valid, not so much. Destruction isn't going in our advantage. Church calls that evil doing, but the problem is that church likes to clasify anything that's not in their best interest as evil... that is why I don't like that word. Like word retard, at first was a medical term which described certain condition. Now its the most common insult...

I don't think that what Russia currently is much different from what other superpowers do. They just do it in different way and western world looks a lot shinier on the outside. Also most of the money westerners have is not direct result of their hard work. In many cases it is result of taking from the others. Colonies and stuff, you know...

[Teeth]

Different, sure. Valid, not so much. Destruction isn't going in our advantage. Church calls that evil doing, but the problem is that church likes to clasify anything that's not in their best interest as evil... that is why I don't like that word.

Good, my post stated the opposite of my own opinion, I detest moral (and cultural) relativism. Call it good and bad, right or wrong, then if that works better for you, but I am glad you do believe in some degree of universal morality.

The byproduct of a classic Malthusian collapse ? Actually I'm somewhat with Leshma here. Human beings bar mentally ill know right and wrong, but none has superpowers preventing wrong to be done.

Well, saying that there is no good or evil or saying that there is good and evil but no way to prevent evil are two standpoints that deserve distinction I'd say.

[Vovka]

Oh mighty enlightened russian who receives the most pure and legimate news on earth, will u help us see these situations clearer.

I do not watch TV since 2001

[serr]

...Protesters have firearms and don't even try to hide them. Now I don't see good way to solve this, there will be bloodshed. Its scale totally depends on Russia's actions now...

What Russia they waiting for? Guarantees of "non-interference"? In vain. Maybe for You is a paradox. Nevertheless, the fear of Russia allows you still keep the situation in Ukraine from the beginning of hostilities, civil war. While the Ukrainian authorities are afraid of Russia - bloodshed will not. There is a time and place for the negotiation process.

Alright, I overreacted a bit, there is still possibility of peaceful solution, small though. And it will disappear the moment they start shooting.
Would our government and police act tougher if there was no Russia or if it guaranteed "non-interference" ? Yes, definitely. Yet in that case there would be no protests or rather there would be protests but with some understandable demands, not for joining Russia.

While the Ukrainian authorities are afraid of Russia - bloodshed will not.

And here you are very wrong. Probably ukrainian authorities won't start bloodshed, that's true, but it doesn't mean it won't start at all. In fact there are constant fighting between pro-ukrainian and pro-russian people. Just without firearms with live rounds and not massive.. for now.

Another thing I'm afraid of...
You know, Zaporozhye is eastern city where people speak russian, yet there are no pro-russian rallies here now. Not because we don't have people who supports Russia, but because now they went to Donetsk, there were too few of them to do anything stupid here. And what I'm afraid of is that when/if they win in Donetsk - they will come to Zaporozhye, not alone, but with all those pro-russian protesters from Donetsk and other cities who went there and then it will be worse than in Kharkiv here.

[BIA_ivani4]

I do not watch TV since 2001

TV is a tool with which people in the US, the EU and Ukraine are taught afraid russian  and Russia. If they are afraid of us, they build shelters and anti-strengthening. This is good! Are they getting a lot of work! They lack the time and funds, for that would be stupid to misbehave and with impunity to destroy the foundations of the life of other people.
 Each person of the "free world" must (even obliged) to keep his head in the TV! Then the rest of the "totalitarian and wrong" world of approximately 6 000 000 000) will be able to live peacefully and in accordance with their wishes. 

[Vovka]

black mirror 1s.2e

[Eugen]

Didnt read all forum text. I read a little in german news site. To me it seems what happened is following:

- Julija Timoschenko was part of President Leonid Kutschmas regency from 1999-2001. She had the task to fight corruption in the energy departments under Primeminister Wiktor Juschtschenko . Later she was imprisoned for corruption in this time period herself.

- 2004 Julija Timochenkon was part of the Orange Revolution wich started after a manipulated election where Kutschmas promoted successor Wiktor Janukowitsch was removed bcouse of electional fraud and Wiktor Juschtschenko prior primeminister became new president with Timochenko as primeminister. In the same year Juschtschenko was poisoned by unkonwn actors and survived. Political peace did not last long. Juschtschenko (neo-liberal) could not settle with Timochenko (social-democrat) and Timochenkos party was dismissend end of 2005.

- 2006 Wiktor Janukowitsch (who was removed due to manipulated election before) becomes primeminister and Timochenko goes in opposition. This also does not last long. New elections 2007:
- 2007 Julija Timochenko gets primeminister again.

- 2008 / 2009 Gas-crisis (what happened? Oligarch Dmytro Firtasch was involved?!) no gas was delivered - most probably becouse Ukraine could not pay the bills to russia. Media tells, that Timochenko made a deal with putin so gas was flowing again.

- 2010 Timochenko is only second in election for president and resigns. Now Janukowitsch (who was dismissed 2004 becouse of electoral fraud) becomes president (maybe there was electional fraud again, like Timochenko suggested - but probably he won becouse of massive [russian?] capital and PR-Agendas).

- 2011 Timochenko is imprisoned for various controversal allegations of bribary in the time of president Kutschma, who proposed the now ruling Janukowitch as his successor in 2004. The accusations are highly controversal, as there was no personal gain for Timochenko.

Now links to german news:

Putin plans Eurasian Union - german

Putin plans Eurasin Union - first steps - german

Ukraine: pro Russians against pro EUs - german

Putin speaks and plays it simple - german

And all over again - Big plans of Russia - german

So Putin only wants a stable economic area in Eurasia? But he does not care if nations are democratic or not.  Can one trust Russia to respect the sovereignity of the participating states? He does the best to show the world - one can not trust russia.

Is there only this choice: Ukrainian Nationalists lead a internally split and nearly bancrupt nation that can only hope on EU funds or Russian Protectorate with quite the same outcome?? Or is it not as it seems???

[Kafein]

You don't need superpowers to not slaughter children?

I've not been in that situation myself, how would I know ?

I'm all for global government, but real global government where both of us are given equal chance from the birth to prove ourselves. I don't see that happening any time soon, looks to me more like USA is trying to sell globalization to enslave other countries to work for their cause, not global interest.

It seems to me that economically, globalization is not going too well for the US. Certainly not as well as in developping countries.

Good, my post stated the opposite of my own opinion, I detest moral (and cultural) relativism. Call it good and bad, right or wrong, then if that works better for you, but I am glad you do believe in some degree of universal morality.
Well, saying that there is no good or evil or saying that there is good and evil but no way to prevent evil are two standpoints that deserve distinction I'd say.

The problem with moral whatever is that it's a human and biological construct, hence the idea of universal morality is kind of silly because it depends on how humans are built. Moral relativism is also silly because we are all more or less the same. It's only through a change in perspective that we view the same things with different value.

[BIA_ivani4]

... Or is it not as it seems???

Almost so. Ukraine is a country where thieves, criminals and oligarchs ate all the food. People not working for 23 years. People live on the Maidan. Now we want to eat. Someone wants to eat in the EU. Someone thinks that Russia will have to feed more delicious and more. Now they fight. Whom to make poorer - the EU or Russia. 

[Eugen]

A bitter laugh it is.

What stubberness it is: People dont want Janukowitsch and make a revolution. After 10 years same Janukowitsch gets President never the less - and again Revolution. This time Russia doesnt play puppet games anymore. Now tanks ride the krim. Its obvious. Democracy is just a farce for little big Putin.

EDIt:
seen the poll: he will and he should contiune to conquer Ukraine becouse:  he can and will not afford to lose his face. Priority maxime for Nixon will be good for Putin too.

[Paul]

TV is a tool with which people in the US, the EU and Ukraine are taught afraid russian  and Russia. If they are afraid of us, they build shelters and anti-strengthening. This is good! Are they getting a lot of work! They lack the time and funds, for that would be stupid to misbehave and with impunity to destroy the foundations of the life of other people.
 Each person of the "free world" must (even obliged) to keep his head in the TV! Then the rest of the "totalitarian and wrong" world of approximately 6 000 000 000) will be able to live peacefully and in accordance with their wishes. 

And the irony here is that ivani gets his info from Russian tv.

[BIA_ivani4]

Europe very carefully listens to Putin if he is silent.

The Putin phenomenon: the Governments and people of the democratic world want to see and listen to Putin! Putin should speak always! Only in this case in the EU's certainty and peace of mind. When Putin keeps silent, in Europe and Ukraine comes horror!