Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Moncho]

Before it was foreign troops (Russian) attacking national troops (Ukrainian), now it is national troops (Russian) attacking and ousting the evil Ukrainian invaders of the Motherland. The Ukrainian bases are like Private Ryan, trapped in a foreign hostile land.
Also, a referendum in peace is better than one in war. Now they can argue that they offered to get out of there and return, and they refused to...

[Falka]

Why you minused me Falka, I made only good - neutral post recently 

Tbh I don't remember why. You said sth about WWII which I didn't like, but cba to check what was that And I don't mind "bad" posts, expressing different opinion than mine, me downvoting your post doesn't change that

[Butan]

I can respect that    here's my + of love.

[Tovi]

An unfair treaty? Which parts did you find unfair, please refer to source material.

It would have destroyed all the old industry int east of the country. And it was a first step for joing NATO later. But most important, when a democratic government says "No", this is "No".
But EU do not like democracy. When France and Netherland said "No" to the European Constitution treaty, it was adopted later with an other name... fuck you democracy, fuck you referendum, fuck you people. Again and again.
I know how EU works, i'm born inside.

[Corwin]

Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self defence. I can't believe they will sacrifice those soldiers for fucking good PR.

[Segd]

I know how EU works, i'm born inside.

Good for you that you didn't born in Sparta. They used to throw your kind from a cliff. 

[Kalp]

Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self defence. I can't believe they will sacrifice those soldiers for fucking good PR.

Two weeks too late.

[Nessaj]

It would have destroyed all the old industry int east of the country. And it was a first step for joing NATO later. But most important, when a democratic government says "No", this is "No".
But EU do not like democracy. When France and Netherland said "No" to the European Constitution treaty, it was adopted later with an other name... fuck you democracy, fuck you referendum, fuck you people. Again and again.
I know how EU works, i'm born inside.

Democratic government? Since when? You did read that Ukraine is among the top 3 most corrupted nations on Earth.
Saying Ukraine had a democratic government is like saying Putin was elected democratically, how many percentages above 100% was it again? ...

The EU treaty was fine, maybe you were just worried about Tymoshenko's foreign medical check which was the only ultimatum; plus NATO would have been perfect for Ukraine, they should have joined when they gave up their arsenal, but hey that's why they got this treaty:

If you wan't talk to about something undemocratic, then try and read about the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is a political agreement signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. Later, China and France gave somewhat weaker individual statements of assurance as well.
The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.
Following the 2014 Crimean crisis, the U.S. and U.K. both separately stated that Russian involvement is in breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, and in clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.

According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:

• Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
• Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
• Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
• Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
• Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
• Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.

Which parts of those did Russia honor? Yeah, none. If Ukraine have still had their arsenal none of this would have happened.

This whole thing is beyond stupidity, all that this entails and implies for the future is bad..

[Corwin]

Two weeks too late.

Definitely. Now it is pointless, they will only get killed.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self defence. I can't believe they will sacrifice those soldiers for fucking good PR.

Yeah. They should withdraw their soldiers from Crimea. If shit hits the fan they'll be the first to get a mouthful of it, isolated in their bases as they are, surrounded by hostile, well equipped, and presumably well trained Ruskies and  belligerent locals. If things escalate it'll be a blood bath, their lives tossed away for no good reason.

[serr]

True, however it is very complicated. They can't just move out of there - they are blocked and lets be honest, they are in hostile territory now.
Obviously we need to make agreement, but with whom?
Our government is not recognized neither by Russia nor by Crimea authorities, and Crimea is still considered to be ukrainian territory by Ukraine. Any negotiations are extremely difficult to do and without negotiations there is no way to evacuate men.

[Swaggart]

Those who are bemoaning Russia's lack of commitment to international law and treaties it finds inconvenient should remember that all countries act in this manner. Europe and North America are not exactly strict adherents to their commitments either, so I don't understand all this hubub over some treaty that was written with the implicit understanding that NATO and the EU would not encroach to Russia's borders.

Anyway, back to the endless circlejerk where no one will convince anyone of anything.

[Leshma]

Good for you that you didn't born in Sparta. They used to throw your kind from a cliff. 

I don't see how you're different than him in that regard. He's from France and bashes EU government, you're from Russia and you're against Russian regime. Just don't justify your stance with right and wrong, those terms belong to religion, not politics.

[Corwin]

True, however it is very complicated. They can't just move out of there - they are blocked and lets be honest, they are in hostile territory now.
Obviously we need to make agreement, but with whom?
Our government is not recognized neither by Russia nor by Crimea authorities, and Crimea is still considered to be ukrainian territory by Ukraine. Any negotiations are extremely difficult to do and without negotiations there is no way to evacuate men.

Military officers can negotiate safe passage for those soldiers. I am sure Russians would agree. But you Gov has issued them order allowing them to fire. This suggests some disgusting politician probably wants them dead as martyrs, in order to unify the people to defend the country and support its leadership.

[serr]

Military officers can negotiate safe passage for those soldiers. I am sure Russians would agree. But you Gov has issued them order allowing them to fire. This suggests some disgusting politician probably wants them dead as martyrs, in order to unify the people to defend the country and support its leadership.

Yes, that's very disturbing.
On other hand they had to react somehow on killing our soldier, it was impossible to ignore it. I can only hope it won't be followed by more stupid decisions.