Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Torben]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromaydan-falcon

what is happening?  what are those green lazers?  has the police taken half of the maydan or are those guys standing there demonstrators?  ahrg

[Corwin]

On one point I actually agree with DarkBlade (hate to admit it) but the EU/US don't really give a damn about any civilians killed or war-like scenarios happening in a neighbouring country. There are rock-solid economical interests at work. Cheap labourers, a new market to sell their shit in...

Not only that. USA is half a world away, and they are not going to mess in Russia's backyard for sure, their support will remain declarative. We have all seen in Georgia example what happens to those in Russia's sphere of interest that count on Western help. They get run over, while USA and EU "strongly condemn use of force for resolving political issues".

And about EU, I've seen just how impotent and ineffective EU is in Bosnia and Kosovo, especially Bosnia. EU is a paper tiger and bureaucratic structure, unable to solve ANY serious crisis without American help. Sad, but true.

[Sniger]

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(no use of spoilers its suppose to hit you in the face like that)

someone (or something?) planned and organised the shit happening. the people are puppets :/

edit:

Not only that. USA is half a world away, and they are not going to mess in Russia's backyard for sure, their support will remain declarative. We have all seen in Georgia example what happens to those in Russia's sphere of interest that count on Western help. They get run over, while USA and EU "strongly condemn use of force for resolving political issues".

And about EU, I've seen just how impotent and ineffective EU is in Bosnia and Kosovo, especially Bosnia. EU is a paper tiger and bureaucratic structure, unable to solve ANY serious crisis without American help. Sad, but true.

its not cus "they" are unable "they" are very very pro at what "they" do and you can be sure everything that happens is planned and organised months or years ahead.

[Bob_Ross]

I must say I'm rather worried about the current situation in Ukraine. What Yanukovych should have done is reach out to the opposition and hand over the majority of presidential powers to parliament, a first step towards real democracy. If protests were still to continue after that, he should call new elections. His current policy of repression will only further escalate the situation, and he has already lost all legitimacy, both nationally and abroad. I really can't see Yanukovych maintaining his position for much longer, at least not without plunging the country into chaos.

[Osiris]

Problem with that Ross is we dont know how many people want him out It could be a very loud violent minority rioting in the capital and he has every right to defend his position. The point is you shouldn't just take the uprisings position and assume they are fighting for their rights and freedoms and are just oppressed

[Sniger]

we dont know anything at all cept what we are suppose to (think we) know

[Bob_Ross]

Problem with that Ross is we dont know how many people want him out It could be a very loud violent minority rioting in the capital and he has every right to defend his position. The point is you shouldn't just take the uprisings position and assume they are fighting for their rights and freedoms and are just oppressed

Even if it is a minority, it is still a large and one that simply can't be ignored. New elections, under the strict surveillance of international observers, are the only way to regain legitimacy. Democracy isn't only about carrying out the will of the majority of the population, it also involves consensus and the protection of minorities. Otherwise democracy simply becomes tyranny of the majority.

[serr]

Problem with that Ross is we dont know how many people want him out It could be a very loud violent minority rioting in the capital and he has every right to defend his position.

Most of ukrainians want him out, another thing that there is only "loud violent minority" who are ready to fight and probably die for that. Most people really want him to go but would prefer him to stay rather than have civil war.

[Dark_Blade]

every community is tyranny of majority. sad but true

Most of ukrainians want him out, another thing that there is only "loud violent minority" who are ready to fight and probably die for that. Most people really want him to go but would prefer him to stay rather than have civil war.

well there is no good ways for ukraine. everyone is liying and noone really cares about citizen. that how its going ... but with years of this things its became normal, as for me. and as Serr said - better this leader than civil war and anrachy.

[Bob_Ross]

every community is tyranny of majority. sad but true

That's why democracies should have constitutional limits, separation of powers, supermajority rules, and a Bill of Rights.

[serr]

Note however that what I wrote is what I see in eastern Ukraine. It may be(and probably is) really different in central and western Ukraine. I don't know how many people are supporting riots there. What you can be sure about is that there are even less people who would support Yanukovich.

[Kirman]

That's why democracies should have constitutional limits, separation of powers, supermajority rules, and a Bill of Rights.

It's easy for us to say things like that but when you are a prime minister or something in politics. I'm not sure if any of us can still talk like that.

[Tagora]

I don't think it's been posted yet here.   :(

[Erasmas]

"loud violent minority" who are ready to fight and probably die for that.

67 did already over last 3 days. Sad.

[serr]

That's not sad, that's horrible.
And the worst thing is that I don't see good way to end it. It was possible, though very difficult, a week ago. But now.. I'm afraid it can be too late.