Meanwhile in Ukraine

[okiN]

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That last picture is hilarious in the context of the preceding ones.

[Xant]

Every previous revolutionary movement in human history has made the same basic mistake. They’ve all seen power as a static apparatus, as a structure. And it’s not. It’s a dynamic, a flow system with two possible tendencies. Power either accumulates, or it diffuses through the system. In most societies, it’s in accumulative mode, and most revolutionary movements are only really interested in reconstituting the accumulation in a new location. A genuine revolution has to reverse the flow. And no one ever does that, because they’re all too fucking scared of losing their conning tower moment in the historical process. If you tear down one agglutinative power dynamic and put another one in its place, you’ve changed nothing. You’re not going to solve any of that society’s problems, they’ll just reemerge at a new angle. You’ve got to set up the nanotech that will deal with the problems on its own. You’ve got to build the structures that allow for diffusion of power, not re-grouping. Accountability, demodynamic access, systems of constituted rights, education in the use of political infrastructure.

[Jarold]

Every previous revolutionary movement in human history has made the same basic mistake. They’ve all seen power as a static apparatus, as a structure. And it’s not. It’s a dynamic, a flow system with two possible tendencies. Power either accumulates, or it diffuses through the system. In most societies, it’s in accumulative mode, and most revolutionary movements are only really interested in reconstituting the accumulation in a new location. A genuine revolution has to reverse the flow. And no one ever does that, because they’re all too fucking scared of losing their conning tower moment in the historical process. If you tear down one agglutinative power dynamic and put another one in its place, you’ve changed nothing. You’re not going to solve any of that society’s problems, they’ll just reemerge at a new angle. You’ve got to set up the nanotech that will deal with the problems on its own. You’ve got to build the structures that allow for diffusion of power, not re-grouping. Accountability, demodynamic access, systems of constituted rights, education in the use of political infrastructure.

Then why don't you become their leader.

It's a good statement though.

[SixThumbs]

Then why don't you become their leader.

It's a good statement though.

I think that's mostly what he's remonstrating against.

[Butan]

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What does this mean ? 

[Armpit_Sweat]

Every previous revolutionary movement in human history has made the same basic mistake. They’ve all seen power as a static apparatus, as a structure. And it’s not. It’s a dynamic, a flow system with two possible tendencies. Power either accumulates, or it diffuses through the system. In most societies, it’s in accumulative mode, and most revolutionary movements are only really interested in reconstituting the accumulation in a new location. A genuine revolution has to reverse the flow. And no one ever does that, because they’re all too fucking scared of losing their conning tower moment in the historical process. If you tear down one agglutinative power dynamic and put another one in its place, you’ve changed nothing. You’re not going to solve any of that society’s problems, they’ll just reemerge at a new angle. You’ve got to set up the nanotech that will deal with the problems on its own. You’ve got to build the structures that allow for diffusion of power, not re-grouping. Accountability, demodynamic access, systems of constituted rights, education in the use of political infrastructure.

   
That is because you have an armed mob on your hands, ready and comfortable with lynching any time of the day. That's how civil wars and armed revolutions end up. You dont want those ex-revolutionary militia running a local power struggle.
Thats why the repression come - there has to be a person or a small group, who will be even more hardcore. Otherwise noone would lay their weapons down, every single uneducated revolutionary peasant fuck, would demand all sorts of privileges, in a state ravaged and destroyed by revolution. He would claim loot for his victory. In mass, both sides are just fighting - they dont really have any goals, other than survive and win. It's naive to presume, that even 1/10 of those who are fighting, have any real political motives. They do it just because everyone else do it, and they had to take side. And they WILL demand reward for their service in one form or another, and so they have to be disarmed and pacified. Pretty hard to achieve in a post-catastrophic period, without using dictatorship/terror or re-using the old institutes of government ( since everyone knows how they work, and no need to waste time on re-structuring anything, or re-educating anyone, changing monarchy with military dictatorship is easier, compared to changing religious fundamentalist dictatorship with secular liberal democracy )

Not that i really disagree with you, but i find it hard to imagine an intellectual/reasonable/coldminded armed revolution.

[Erasmas]

3 steps to become new president of a modern country without proper elections:


1. claim actual president is corrupted
2. encourage peaceful protests to the point of violence
3. use wounded and dead people as stepping stone to power

4th bonus step:

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Send policemen against supporters of the next claimant, and use brute force if necessary!

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Rinse and repeat.

What's the point of these protests? Seems pretty dumb to continue them for this long.

It is nice to live in a rich western country with well established democracy, with very limited system corruption, social security on decent level, good health care and justice system that follows some basic rules. Living like that you can afford technocratic comments with no regard to people who actually live there. Shame on you.

People are dying there to change how they live. To change the system. Not all Ukrainian folks want that change, situation is extremely complicated and I bet that attitude to what happens there depends on where exactly you live and who you are.

[Armpit_Sweat]

It is nice to live in a rich western country with well established democracy, with very limited system corruption, social security on decent level, good health care and justice system that follows some basic rules. Living like that you can afford technocratic comments with no regard to people who actually live there. Shame on you.

People are dying there to change how they live. To change the system. Not all Ukrainian folks want that change, situation is extremely complicated and I bet that attitude to what happens there depends on where exactly you live and who you are.

Will you please say what "Ukrainian folks" want? ( as if the police, president, and opposing citizens are not Ukrainians... ) What is this change they want?
 
"System corruption" is not an alien virus or foreign power insurgents, "system corruption" is inside citizens themselves. Who is a corrupt clerk in a city administration? Is he not a typical citizen? Did some black evil magic elevated every asshole in the country to an important position?
 
People are dying there to change how they live, you say? So did every single terrorist in the history! Death and suffering are not a proof of anything. Just because someone is willing to die or kill for an idea/belief/wish/freedom, does not justify it in any way.

[Xant]

It is nice to live in a rich western country with well established democracy, with very limited system corruption, social security on decent level, good health care and justice system that follows some basic rules. Living like that you can afford technocratic comments with no regard to people who actually live there. Shame on you.

I don't see how where I live is relevant, or how my comment shows no regard for the people who live in Ukraine. I just happen to be of the opinion that either they should do it effectively or they shouldn't do it at all. "International sanctions" is not going to change anything for the power elite, they've done so many crimes that they're going to go down fighting and won't just step down because the international community decides to punish them by punishing their poor (it's not like sanctions mean anything to the rich).

[Tagora]

In a way, I think the two opposing viewpoints in here compliment one another.  They both teach us what we've done wrong in the past.  In the last decade or so there was never a time where we could pat ourselves on the back and say, "Look, we toppled the evil regime and have entered a better social reality" so to speak.  If we want to liberalize the Ukraine we don't just hold early elections, we take the measures necessary to redistribute power (a remarkably easy thing to say).  You want to emulate Poland?  Do what Poland did.  But if you need to engage in emancipatory politics then fucking do it and have a plan.  Don't become another South Africa, another Egypt, and don't ever adopt the malpractices of your predecessor.  If you become a mob of armed goons with no loyalty to the cause the fight has already been lost.  By that point you've ostracized the world, no doubt with images of beatings and massacres.  You need one cohesive programme, the only promise of new order, one worthy of the sacrifice your people are making.

[Angantyr]

There's three sides to civil war or unrest: reactionaries, revolutionaries (both sides usually different kinds of autocrats/fascists) and in between them; the People.

[Nightmare798]

"System corruption" is not an alien virus or foreign power insurgents, "system corruption" is inside citizens themselves. Who is a corrupt clerk in a city administration? Is he not a typical citizen?

Accusing all citizens of being corrupt because of actions of few individuals is just plain stupid.

[the real god emperor]

Riot pictures from UA are hilarious, wasnt like that when happened in Turkey 

I think because policemen knows what humanity means there, and knows smoke bombs and tear gas in not meant to aim at someone's head.I mean, in Turkey if you can't get in any universities, you can always take Police exams , and be a savage retard , i don't mean every cop is retarded and violent tho, there are really respectable and good cops ofc. they found out the government fraud despite of all the pressure on them (the officers in charge of this matter got fired tho -_- ) Also you people seem to be better organized , cus government blocked enternance to Facebook Twitter etc those days in Turkey...

To sum up, well played Ukraine, well played...

[Armpit_Sweat]

Accusing all citizens of being corrupt because of actions of few individuals is just plain stupid.

I accuse corruption in having it's roots in local traditions/customs. Police, doctors, teachers are all ordinary people. Bribes will end, not when everyone gets rich, but when everyone stops asking for special treatment for themselves.

So what is your opinion on "corruption", "system" and bribes? Where does that shit come from?

[Erasmas]

Will you please say what "Ukrainian folks" want? ( as if the police, president, and opposing citizens are not Ukrainians... ) What is this change they want?
 
"System corruption" is not an alien virus or foreign power insurgents, "system corruption" is inside citizens themselves. Who is a corrupt clerk in a city administration? Is he not a typical citizen? Did some black evil magic elevated every asshole in the country to an important position?
 
People are dying there to change how they live, you say? So did every single terrorist in the history! Death and suffering are not a proof of anything. Just because someone is willing to die or kill for an idea/belief/wish/freedom, does not justify it in any way.

This, my friend, is called demagogy.

I set aside what UA guys want - that's pure politics and easy to find on google. I want to comment on corruption and sacrifice.

You are right that corruption is inside citizens.  It is a clear case when someone gives the bribe to the cop to avoid fine. What you fail to notice, however, is that there are places in the world where one needs to bribe to get majority of his/her primary needs fulfilled. Where you don't get something you should have the access to - eg. technically free health care - without bribe. Because you are expected to give it. You have to give it to get things for which the "government" claims to exist. That's what I call "system corruption". And yes - it is inside every person. But there are cases where it is not enough to say "I will not do it" to stop it. There are cases where you need a major change of the country's structure to achieve major change of human behaviour.

Your second comment I find outrageous. "People are dying there to change how they live - so did every single terrorist in the history". Maybe so. But  the same applies to every single freedom fighter around the world. People who get to arms fight tyranny, invaders, evil kings. Labourers who go out to streets to fight for better life. Death and suffering are not a proof of anything indeed. But sometimes it is just - JUST - the sacrifice one pays for a greater good of many others. And that deserves respect.

I am old enough to remember tanks and troops on the streets of the city where I was born. I can remember people being shot for what they believe. I know names of people who died for the country I live in. Holy fuck, I lost my family members because of it. And you know what? I would like to have enough courage to stand for what I believe when the time comes. And I wish you the same.