Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Kuujis]

Tovi - toy like news re Ukr naztees? Well - here you go.
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[Vovka]

Tovi - toy like news re Ukr naztees? Well - here you go.
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Kuujis the greate MythBusters 

[Nebun]

My mistakes are ones that absolutely everyone do all the time. Doubleposting is quite simple to avoid and easy to remember. Only people new to the internet doublepost.

And I dont wanna talk about Ukraine and Eastern barbarianland anymore. We never really talked that much anyway. It was just random fact throwing and hatespeeches(in which I too took part of ). Not like you really talked anyway. All your posts in this thread can be summarized with "ahuehuehue, you have never been to Russia thereby you dont know anything, I live here, thereby I know all about probably one of the largest nations on the planet".

Vuvka pls...

double standards, did you learn it from US government? You just soften 2 much bigger fuckups then double posting. ) Because to me reading a lot of unrelated stupid shit is more of a problem then double posting.
you should be diplomat

as for main topic: when Ukrain will be in ruins, leveled to the ground and turned to steppes from a big distance you will be able to see american bases with their PRO defending democracy in Ukrain

[DaveUKR]

double standards, did you learn it from US government? You just soften 2 much bigger fuckups then double posting. ) Because to me reading a lot of unrelated stupid shit is more of a problem then double posting.
you should be diplomat

as for main topic: when Ukrain will be in ruins, leveled to the ground and turned to steppes from a big distance you will be able to see american bases with their PRO defending democracy in Ukrain

Well, since you joined the discussion, your opinion might be interesting for those who are not just trolling here. As far as I know you were from Moldova and you had pro-Russian opinion (correct me if I'm wrong). What do you think about Transnistria (Pridnestrov'ye) situation?

[Nebun]

Well, since you joined the discussion, your opinion might be interesting for those who are not just trolling here. As far as I know you were from Moldova and you had pro-Russian opinion (correct me if I'm wrong). What do you think about Transnistria (Pridnestrov'ye) situation?

I feel a trap here!
It may seam pro-russian, but no, i'm anti Nationalist, anti US Government, anti Fascist. If there is anyone that will fuck US government up i'm happy for them. Doesn't matter if its russia, china or someone else. I do like Putin for his actions, mainly because he stopped USA from attacking Syria. And he kind of balanced. If someone would be softer then him then US would own all businesses and banks in russia again and keep country undeveloped forever. Or if there would be someone more agresive and stupid he would already took over Ukraine by force. Removing dollar from international trade is also fun. Moving gas pipe to turkey in response to restrictions from EU on building it in bulgaria is interesting move too. And many more. Looks like a lot of smart moves.

IF U ADEQUATE PERSON DON'T OPEN THE SPOILER!

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Prednestrovie is similar to what happened in Ukraine now. Romania wanted us back, placed their puppet president on throne of Moldova brought a lot of romanian nationalists to us on buses. They wanted to remove russian language from Moldova, and sent away/kill all who disagreed. Even though only prednestrovie decided to fight, most of the population in country didn't want this war at all!!! I spoke with soldiers and police who served back then, they was forced to go and fight that war and if u refuse either prison or they fire u with no pension. As u probably know there was a soviet base and army in prednestrovie. And obviously they defended and was better equipped.
Nationalism is a scary thing, because when u see people wanting to kill u because u speak russian and u studied in russian school - its sick. Not like i came here, i was born here and my grandparents was born here and their grandparents was born here )) Why should i leave or be treated like shit?? Because some nationalist scum who arrived here a week ago want to teach me how to live my life?

In recent revolt, when ex moldovian banker that fleed to USA about 15 years ago and then came back to change government for US puppet/supporter, he didn't even hide it, because its too easy, he was bragging about it in restaurants while meeting with his old friends.
At list this time we didn't have war which is good, they decided to transform country slowly, by closing russian schools few every year, and made it more important to know romanian language, without trying to kill anyone. (I guess they learned this lesson last time)

RESULTS FOR MOLDOVA AFTER CHANGING TO USA AND EU SIDE:
1. Bills gone up multiple times and pensions gone down a lot. To give u a hint
Heating bill for 1 room is about 1000 current currency (or around that), while pensions are about 300-600 current currency ) Thats only heating. Basically by the looks of it our government decided for old people to just die instead of going to pension.
2. My friend worked in company producing and exporting wine - 90% of export was to Russia. And similar for other businesses. Now we don't export anything. because EU doesn't need and Russia won't take.
3. before change we use to repay our depts, and recently we borrowed lots of money from USA.

Basically all around for economy its a lot worse and it looks like our president not really interested in improving our country. And the only thing we got from EU is that we can travel to EU up to 3 months without visa, but not allowed to work. We could do this before with visa. Oh yes they saved us few hours on making visa and fucked up our economy ) looks fair to me. Maybe soon we will have US military base here too and gay parades as well, they usually come at the same time.

Before when first ideas of associating with EU happened i was up for it. Because for me its better personally. But for population and for country is devastating. People migrate to other countries. Some to EU illegally or apply for romanian passports. And who can migrate to Russia, but Russia refuse to about half of applicants.

Our ex president that improved our shitty country over 8 or -12 years can't remember, decided to react differently to revolution and told to police not to fight back, basically our police got beat up, and Parlament house was raided and burned. And they accused him for not letting cops beat up population. I guess when USA changing government in any country, its no win situation. If you let police fight - ur a monster, if u don't - ur a bad leader who can't keep control of the situation ))

I know a lot of people here, but i don't know anyone who was in main plaza making this revolt. I know that in some Universities they closed lessons and forced students to go there and also drove people from romania on buses. But still who was those people? ) For whos freedom they was fighting? ))
Interesting freedom, romania gives moldovians their passports and want to integrate moldova in their country. While president is a puppet of USA. And instead of staying neutral and trading with everyone, he just doing what they tell him.  I need to rethink my view on freedom.

Anyway same happened in Georgia and now in Ukraine. But Ukraine brought it to new level of hatered.
And there is no way that i would ever support any side that allied with fascists. For me nationalists is more then enough to be against them, but fascist.... damn my grandfather just wouldn't understand

BONUS:

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When our government changed. Our new temporary prime minister wanted to create new medals for Romanian soldiers who fought on AXIS side in ww2 and migrated to moldova i guess. Because Moldova was fighting on Soviet side.
This is so similar to Ukraine making now national hero of Bandera who killed mostly Polish and Russian population in villages. Men, women, children - what a hero. And this azov sqad.

Soo many similar things happened in our countries. Maybe u need time Dave to see how much they fucked ur country in the ass.

[krrhmXPRNC]

I think Dave will say that Bandera didn't kill polish, russian and belorussian people, because he was in german prison that time.

[Thomek]

I know almost jack shit about Moldova, please forgive my ignorance..

But it seems to me, that some people blame US/EU for their misery, while my impression is that it's not at all evil US/EU bankers that are to blame for many of the problems in former soviet bloc.

Of course, the economy took a major hit all over. Makes sense since communist economy was not market controlled.. so when the market stops demanding romanian or georgian wine, it collapses. (mild example there..) The solution is simple, get romanian/georgian wines up to competitive standard and bring it to market. Chile is exporting respected wines worldwide, so is california, and both are relatively new in the game. (And US wines used to have a laughable reputation..)

In the end, I think we can say that command economy is not sustainable. It's not black and white however, and I'm not some laissez faire capitalist. Many things might as well be owned by government, perhaps in unison with privates, as a check on sanity.

In RF and most of eastern bloc, it was the local politicians and corruption that did the most damage, not foreign corporations. In romania, corruption is still ridiculously high, where it seems to me almost all the politicians are super-corrupt. Recently read about Laura Codruta Kovesi catching the finance minister and his art-collection.. The story reminds me of some corrupt local politician. At the national level it's unbelievable. IMO the general, main problem with eastern bloc is/was corruption, and it can only be cleaned from the top down. No one will be uncorrupt with corrupt leaders.

Perhaps things took a shit turn for Moldova, but this is not at all true for all the eastern bloc countries. Most of the ones in EU are doing very well, while some are still struggling. My point is, EU cannot compensate for corrupt or idiotic national governments...
(Although they try, and it's mostly for the better, like enforcing basic checks and balances to organizations.)

About hating on nationalism, I'm 100% with you. Still worth lending some thought to its origins though. We are talking about countries recently out of occupation, dominance or servitude to RF. Countries searching for a new identity, even RF are almost always turning to nationalism. It's after all, the best way to blame all the problems on others, while supporting the idea that people should feel good about themselves. Bandera is pop in Ukraine because of RF dominance, nothing else.

TLDR: Consider putting the blame on local politics, before bashing the EU/US.. Capitalism sell anything at the price people are willing to pay, so it needs strong uncorrupt government to keep it in check. If you have high gas bills, the problem is probably a monopoly, or a dysfunctional market for whatever reason.


Edit:

And the point about attacks on russian speakers.. The problem is not them, its the fact that RF has a tendency to intervene and use them to control and fuck up local politics. I've never met anyone racists towards russian speakers or russians. Poles have it way worse when it comes to prejudice and jokes than the russians. (in the west)

[Beauchamp]

Please don't open this spoiler if you're a typical Rus like Vovka, Nebun, Nicko etc...

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[Thomek]

Please don't open this spoiler if you're a typical Rus like Vovka, Nebun, Nicko etc...

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Lol I actually did that to myself last year.. was biking with a plastic bag with a brand new suction cup stick (edit: Plunger) thing for the bathroom. Genious idea.

[Tibe]

I feel a trap here!
It may seam pro-russian, but no, i'm anti Nationalist, anti US Government, anti Fascist. If there is anyone that will fuck US government up i'm happy for them. Doesn't matter if its russia, china or someone else. I do like Putin for his actions, mainly because he stopped USA from attacking Syria. And he kind of balanced. If someone would be softer then him then US would own all businesses and banks in russia again and keep country undeveloped forever. Or if there would be someone more agresive and stupid he would already took over Ukraine by force. Removing dollar from international trade is also fun. Moving gas pipe to turkey in response to restrictions from EU on building it in bulgaria is interesting move too. And many more. Looks like a lot of smart moves.

About Syria however. Might have been a smart more yes, but it was also partially a very stupid move. I too was strongly against nato in Syria at first. Seemed like a very dumb move for the west to destory the syrian army and than have everyone do whatever they want with the entire country, unless nato stayed there to keep the peace for atleast 10 years. The big problem with Russia is that they didnt stop USA from attacking Syria, because they wanted best for the syrians. They stopped USA because it seemed it increased their popularity and Russia likes to fuck and disagree with US wherever they possibly can, even when it makes almost no sense.

Well they stopped USA from attacking Syria. GG Russia. However Syria is practically destroyed now, shitton of people dead and now we are dealing with one of the biggest refugeecrysis in the modern era. Im pretty sure letting US go in there would have saved a lot more of the country and people. Now theres nothing left of it. Russia should have atleast sent its own troops in there if they didnt allow anyone else to go, whatever the reason, they could have saved the situation too. Assad and everyone else there would have gladly accepted Russias help. Now that they stopped US they stopped talking to Syria entirely. Noone is coming to help. It was only a smart move for Russia. One country less where there are nato bases. Also a good move for NATO and West in some parts. Pretty sure the world would have blamed them for all of this if they were involved. Now they cant cause the country got destroyed without any of their involvement. Shit move for Syria. Country is pretty much gone, its now a homeplace of endless violence and anarchy.

I really even respected Putin and Russia at some degree when he told the West to fuck off from Syria. It seemed like a good move at the time. But now I kinda get the impression that US might have been right about this one. Syria will not recover from this atleast for 30 years.

[Thomek]

About Syria.. I think it would probably be IS now if US had gone in to bomb. The idea was idiotic, and Putin just took the chance to tell them. I think US government realized there were no alternatives to assad quite early, the problem was that they had already set the press on course, and that's a big ship to turn. They were, and still are, tied by press/public opinion, even though internally they are probably all for getting Assad back in place..

But this is another discussion for another thread.

[Nebun]

If our ex government would defend itself, we would have same thing as in Ukraine, who to blame? stupid population? or those who become experts at making revolts in different countries?
I don't like politics of US, and their desire for bombing countries for resources. They just tooo good at creating reasons to mess with countries. I think they shouldn't get involved anywhere in the world and sit home.

About economics Tomek, u talking in general about how it was after soviet union collapsed. And i'm talking about affects of government changes.
Right after collapse it was shit, few stupid presidents and decline. At about 2000 we had normal president who kept neutrality and since then improved things greatly. He wasn't perfect but way better then anyone before. And now with new government shit again. I don't think that government placed by another country is interested in improving things.
We have some of the best wine here ) Nobody going to let us sell it in europe and if there will be some market in future it will be hard to conquer. For moldova best course would be to trade with russia and develop over time. But EU products everywhere now Basically moldova isn't gaining anything.
On personal level i did gained romanian passport and since i don't work in moldova all this shit doesn't affect me. And i don't really care that much, politics mostly for fun
But how i see current picture is: if USA rapes 20 kids no one will notice, but if Russia slaps 1 everyone will go on about this for ages!

Tibe ur logic just insane to me. Maybe after USA invade all countries in middle east u would change ur opinion. Or they will tell u that they saving people and u will be fine with it.

If russia will use same politics as USA and start attacking countries one after another in europe for example, i will be against Russia then. Ukraine doesn't count!!!! We've been in same situation when prednestrovie rise in Moldova. And if conflict would go to the next level I'm sure half of the population would want protection and help from Russians.
If Ukraine wanted to shift in EU way, they could have done it million times softer. I guess their masters need war.

[Thomek]

If our ex government would defend itself, we would have same thing as in Ukraine, who to blame? stupid population? or those who become experts at making revolts in different countries?

I don't think Ukraine needed EU/US to make a revolt. Yanukovic, his predecessors, it's politicians, and Russian meddling created that problem by alone. I don't understand why people think UKR think US created it. Ukraine was steered to shits, with ultra corrupt, thief president.

What would you do if your country was lead like Ukraine?

What if Russia was steered by a corrupt thief puppet like Yanukovic? And Ukraine media actively supporting him?

To hell I would have gone to the streets. Don't need no EU/US for that. All they did was showing support. I think much more important for UKR population was they saw Poland doing much much better than them. Real ez choice then. They just want a better life.

[Nebun]

Poland always did much better then Ukraine And for then next 50 years or so it will still be the case.

Corruption didn't go anywhere, u have strange understanding of corruption and thinking that changing leader will make it go away. Its not leaders its population who attracted to it. No matter how many leaders changed here we all still corrupt ) and it isn't going away. It slowly wears off but at same rate as always.
Then if our president gets paid by US, then he is corrupt too
Its mentality of population and local economy that need to change and its a very slow process. When ur salary is not enough to survive and its not a scary thing here to get bribes u will take them. And since everything gone worse corruption increase.

Your view is the same as i hear in the west. Good for me I don't watch any news. Yanukovic also wanted to go to EU then changed his mind. Our ex president sort of wanted and to go to EU and to trade with Russia at the same time and sort of stuck between this 2. There was open discussions on how it will kill economy that isn't strong anyway. Maybe Yanukovic thought the same, or maybe Russia offered him more cash then EU )

The funny thing is though is that why US sending ppl to do revolt not EU. We sort of all joining EU but US making revolts ))

And i could understand revolt against shit president, i don't know how he really was, to me all presidents in Ukraine was shit But is new one better? looks the same to me just looking towards west.
lets assume Russia was meddling in Ukraine, but US was too and EU US on the other continent what the fuck.... why they are here ) if they want to mess with someone they have mexica and cuba.

PS: people too lazy to make revolts unless its too horrible. they only work if organised well... now country in 10 bigger shit then before, where is new revolt against new president?

[Nebun]

I don't think Ukraine needed EU/US to make a revolt. Yanukovic, his predecessors, it's politicians, and Russian meddling created that problem by alone. I don't understand why people think UKR think US created it. Ukraine was steered to shits, with ultra corrupt, thief president.

What would you do if your country was lead like Ukraine?

What if Russia was steered by a corrupt thief puppet like Yanukovic? And Ukraine media actively supporting him?

To hell I would have gone to the streets. Don't need no EU/US for that. All they did was showing support. I think much more important for UKR population was they saw Poland doing much much better than them. Real ez choice then. They just want a better life.

also for example, soon moldova will probably become part of romania, or their state, and no one will ask me or my friend or other ppl who live here if we want it or not it will just happen. And no one will go to revolt even if they don't agree, we are very peaceful country. Only their side can provide maniacs to do shit like this