Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DonNicko]

Guys why don't you discuss a videos Anuran has posted?
IMHO on that video there is people acting like a real na zis.
And what about the video I've posted about the shelled school?

[Anuran]

You clearly live in an alternate reality and are not able to think for yourself Anuran.

An "alternate reality" doesn't have to be a wrong one. We just got different opinions. But it's not nice if you say I cannot think for myself only because I have a different opinion

Please explain if you are trolling, just retarded, or actually believe all the crap RF state controlled media throws at you.

Now it's again Russian propaganda... I don't even know exactly what's coming from Russia... As long as conclusions are logical enough I could agree with them. That's quite logical I think...

Understanding the psychology, actually the mass brainwashing going on is more interesting.

Yeah indeed. I am also always amazed when I notice how manipulative mainstream media can be. How they can change peoples' minds. I have recently seen a video from September 11, 2001. This video contained short clips of people and experts talking in German mass media about the terrorist act and most of them added that it can't only be the terrorists who did this. Maybe there was an intelligence agency involved, no one was warned when these planes entered the closed airspace, assumptions that it was not only bin Laden, the fact that the US supported bin Laden's organization etc. But nowadays this stuff is marked down as conspiracy theories...

What shocks me however is how much support Putin gains, and I wonder how he does it.

Be it support or maintaining neutrality and objectivity: By figuring out Western propaganda and agitation. It's not even Putin doing it. It's us, the people, by ourselves. Yesterday RT German started on YouTube and it will soon start in TV, I am curious what effects this will have. We will probably have another propaganda channel but it's the completely opposite view and a danger to the already existing channels. RT is also announced to come in other european languages. In London posters of RT got forbidden!

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Now to MH17: It is possible that it was the jet fighters. But it is also possible that it was a BUK missile system. The BUK system is more probable. However, some more proof would be nice, I mean Russia showed something, US didn't yet although they could. And what about the black box? Case MH17 completely disappeared from the news...

[Christo]

Guys why don't you discuss a videos Anuran has posted?

We can discuss whatever the hell we want.

[Anuran]

Wow... Surprise! Russia invaded Ukraine. OSCE didn't confirm and Russia is again denying the accusation. But Kiev said it, that's enough proof!

[Tibe]

Noone in this thread has stated that Kievs word is gold, so your ironic tone has little effect. Infact Kievs words are about as truthful as the separatists and russians. Making shit up on the go and being completely bonkers. You can blame Nato and the West all you like, but the only one using its military in Ukr is Russia atm. While not an actual invasion, its pretty obvious unconventional warfare.

 I highly doubt this is some secret Western plan. Theres nothing to gain from Ukraine or from destabilizing/pissing off Russia. Russia was weak and poor before the crysis and its still weak and poor. And provoking actual nuclear war with them isnt gonna make anyone anymore richer either.

[[ptx]]

Guys why don't you discuss a videos Anuran has posted?
IMHO on that video there is people acting like a real na zis.
And what about the video I've posted about the shelled school?

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I "discussed the videos", now what?

[Anuran]

You can blame Nato and the West all you like, but the only one using its military in Ukr is Russia atm.

Umm... actually there already were some NATO maneuvers in western Ukraine... And there are more and bigger ones to come (not only in Ukraine but in eastern Europe)

I highly doubt this is some secret Western plan. Theres nothing to gain from Ukraine or from destabilizing/pissing off Russia. Russia was weak and poor before the crysis and its still weak and poor.

Russia has much oil and gas and one particular country wants its currency to stay stable. And this country also hates if oil-rich and gas-rich countries offer their stuff in other currencies... Ukraine or the Ukraine crisis is only a means to an end. One does not simply risk a third World War by massive agitation against Russia out of nowhere or making up incidents just to blame the nuclear power Russia...

[Tibe]

And where did you read that. RT news? Atm there isnt in Ukraine. And yes, in Eastern-Europe. But you forget one  important fact here. NATO didnt really forcefully do these manovers in Eastern Europe. Pretty much every countries government in Eastern-Europe that lives next to Russia and isnt puppeted by Russia was nagging the shit out of NATO to send troops in. And they got barely any equipment and like measly few 100 to few 1000 american troops. Which is not an invasionforce, but rather a method of keeping the peace. Cause if you shoot a US troop you are gonna have a problem with the US. Nobody gives a crap about Ukrainian soldiers or any other smaller countries soldiers lives.

And why is it that every time something happens its automatically US and oil? Thats conspiracytheoristlevel factless assumption. I make this too: I wake up some morning and discover my car stolen, its pretty obviously CIA is behind this and they gave the car to a small buisness that uses it more regularly than I did, thereby they buy more oil and increase the demand and in return the dollar currency stays stable. See how easy it is?

[Anuran]

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I "discussed the videos", now what?

Let me say something concerning the Berlin video first: I don't think this is a neonazi march. That red flag one guy is carrying is probably one of the "Antifa" ("antifascist action", although "anti-German fascism" fits more). On this day usually left-wing extremists, autonomists, anarchists, communists and anti-Germans (Like "Bomber Harris do it again") do massive marches which aren't that peaceful... Such fascist left-wing extremism is far too underestimated here in Germany, just by the way.

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Now to all the videos: I don't think that children get manipulated like in Hitler's time in these countries. And such heavy neonazi-like anti-Russian agitation like it is spread in Ukrainian media is not existent in the videos' countries, I'm sure. Of course all that neonazi stuff is bad and a threat to society but in Ukraine it's something different. I can't exactly explain it but I have felt more concerned than I expected when I saw this... My gut instinct made me feel even more concerned.

[DonNicko]

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I "discussed the videos", now what?

Fuck that na zis, but I didn't hear there to hang russians(or some other nations) from children

[Anuran]

And where did you read that. RT news? Atm there isnt in Ukraine.

Yeeeees, RT...... Almost! German news proudly announcing the maneuver.

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• http://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/940649.nato-bereitet-manoever-in-ukraine-vor.html

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• http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/europa/krise-in-der-ukraine-russland-kritisiert-geplantes-nato-manoever-bei-lemberg-13133616.html
• http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2014-09/nato-truppen-uebung-ukraine-usa-deutschland-militaer-manoever
• http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/international/uebung-in-der-ukraine-russland-protestiert-gegen-nato-manoever/10650940.html

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• http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ukraine-manoever-102.html
• http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2014-09/nato-manoever-ukraine-russland-waffenlieferungen
• http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/rolle-der-nato-falsche-aufregung-um-ukraine-manoever-1.2129877
• http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/rolle-der-nato-falsche-aufregung-um-ukraine-manoever-1.2129877
• http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-nato-startet-militaeruebung-rapid-trident-putin-protestiert-a-991614.html

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• http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nato-erwaegt-grossmanoever-nahe-der-grenze-zu-russland-a-1001530.html
• http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/ukraine-krise-nato-general-grossmanoever-in-osteuropa-ist-moeglich_id_4256411.html
• http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Nato-erwaegt-grosses-Ost-Manoever-article13919366.html
• http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik/-ukraine-russland-konflikt-nato-erwaegt-manoever-in-osteuropa-,10808018,28981268.html
• http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/ukraine-krise-nato-erwaegt-grossmanoever-in-osteuropa-1.2209443

So there is quite much NATO activity in Ukraine for years already! (Rapid Trident)

And they got barely any equipment and like measly few 100 to few 1000 american troops.

You are not talking about nowadays, are you? Spontaneously reminds me of:

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And why is it that every time something happens its automatically US and oil? Thats conspiracytheoristlevel factless assumption. I make this too: I wake up some morning and discover my car stolen, its pretty obviously CIA is behind this and they gave the car to a small buisness that uses it more regularly than I did, thereby they buy more oil and increase the demand and in return the dollar currency stays stable. See how easy it is?

Totally conspiracy theoretical. They handle their debts with oil and gas (and other things). Don't you ask yourself why Saudi Arabia, a non-democratic country, gets supported by the US (Arabia sells its oil for the worthless dollar to the US while the US protect them at pumping the oil) and other countries get bombed down "to bring democracy"? Or why Saddam Hussein gets supported by the West first, and when he starts to sell his oil in Euro instead of Dollar, the US make WMDs up to invade Iraq?

[Kafein]

It's theoretically a good thing to have more diverse journos, the problem is that even Fox does more ground work (largely due to US rule of law and separation of powers) than RT. RT exists only to spread the Kremlin narrative with only a pretense of critical analysis or investigation. The important part of unbiased journalism isn't having a "second opinion", it's to report truthfully on things that actually happen. This seems to be very hard to understand for people who have been listening to nothing but big lie media for decades, a prime example of which was the USSR media. My interpretation is that everybody very quickly learned that the media is telling bullshit and it gives them the intuition that all media are systematically lying to further a given agenda and that truth is fundamentally both inscrutable and worthless. This isn't the case at all when it comes to most Western media, as evidenced by the amount of huge scandals unveiled by the press. While the idea that "both truths are acceptable" is absurd to Westerners, it isn't to Russians. Any fairy tale being spouted by RT is another possibility among sources considered equally untrustworthy.

[Thomek]

It's theoretically a good thing to have more diverse journos, the problem is that even Fox does more ground work (largely due to US rule of law and separation of powers) than RT. RT exists only to spread the Kremlin narrative with only a pretense of critical analysis or investigation. The important part of unbiased journalism isn't having a "second opinion", it's to report truthfully on things that actually happen. This seems to be very hard to understand for people who have been listening to nothing but big lie media for decades, a prime example of which was the USSR media. My interpretation is that everybody very quickly learned that the media is telling bullshit and it gives them the intuition that all media are systematically lying to further a given agenda and that truth is fundamentally both inscrutable and worthless. This isn't the case at all when it comes to most Western media, as evidenced by the amount of huge scandals unveiled by the press. While the idea that "both truths are acceptable" is absurd to Westerners, it isn't to Russians. Any fairy tale being spouted by RT is another possibility among sources considered equally untrustworthy.

This! Very well written.

[Smoothrich]

Its easy to spin a narrative using events to fit into a certain perspective. Most of us news junkies probably get half our kicks by looking at different news media and laughing at selective reporting of facts and cherry picking data can present an entirely different side of a story, and understand the value of following multiple sources of journalism to make your own mind. This is our right, a constitutionally protected freedom in America and I believe through most of Europe by their own system of laws. Freedom of the press, of speech, of discussing and sharing beliefs, of having real conversations. Sure corporate and other private interests do whatever they can to fuck it up for the rest, but we are damn free to call them out on it, to form organizations to represent our interests, to demand truths, and seek out injustices.

But in Russia, you are going to get fucking killed by the government if you are a dissident journalist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

Like forget about RT and shit for a second here. You get fucking hits put out on you, like you are in some sharia law Saudi Arabia bullshit country speaking out against Islam, if you begin saying the wrong things about the wrong powerful people in Russia. There is a fundamental lack of freedom of the press, and its shameful. And people wonder why so many of us scoff at "objective truths" from Russian media. Because people get fucking KILLED if they have the wrong truth!

Maybe we would have better international cooperation if the Russian state didn't act like the fucking mafia so brazenly, but that's prob impossible since Russia is run by criminals to begin with.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/01/wikileaks-cables-russia-mafia-kleptocracy

[Tibe]

Totally conspiracy theoretical. They handle their debts with oil and gas (and other things). Don't you ask yourself why Saudi Arabia, a non-democratic country, gets supported by the US (Arabia sells its oil for the worthless dollar to the US while the US protect them at pumping the oil) and other countries get bombed down "to bring democracy"? Or why Saddam Hussein gets supported by the West first, and when he starts to sell his oil in Euro instead of Dollar, the US make WMDs up to invade Iraq?

Ofcourse I ask myself that. But Saudi Arabia, Iraq and those other countries that got "democracy bombs" are not Russia. You cant bomb and invade Russia probably ever. And their country depends on oli and gas much more than anyone, unlike US, its basically 100% of Russias income. So I dont really see how destabilizing it would help the dollar. Cause the only way to shake Russia is to not buy its oil or drop the oil prices, at the same time fucking their own oilprofits. Clearly Russia has a lot of buyers wether the West likes it or not and they got gigantic supply of it to pump it in larger quantities to supplement the lower price if it ever happened.

So I dont really see how US, oil, Russia and Ukraine are related. Cause taking their oil equals nuclear war, so thats just never gonna happen. And tradepartners they have plenty and even when Russia is completely in ruins, even than they would pump their oil, because they have no other means of profit.