Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Thomek]

But Tovi, you seem unable to sort out your sources.

Who reported plane was shot down by multiple impacts? Any credible source without strong self-interest? Was the information abused, as from "several fragments/bullets" or several different bullets? Edit: like above posters, all air to air missiles are fragment based. Lots of little pieces fly out out them at high speeds to hit better and from further away. Missiles don't work like in james bond movies actually flying into the aircrafts. They explode when they think they are as close as they can be. Did I mention the SU-25 is unpressurized? That its service ceiling (how high it can fly straight) is 2 miles below the altitude of MH17?

I agree with the Nuland thing. But again, it doesn't say HOW that money was spent. US and EU has spent billions and billions in aid to eastern europe since 1991. Even Russia has recieved $2.7 billion from USAID since 1991. Of course, USAID is also a tool to promote american interests around the world. Saying that CIA paid protesters to be on Maidan is utter BS. I'm sure Kiev residents were super-happy with their ultra-corrupt russian puppet president..

The Assad thing I agree with 100%. Doesn't make any sense that Assad did it.

Now to the point Tovi.

You have 1 lie, one half thruth, and one "most probably true" case. You are mixing and reading them as truths. Read the article I linked earlier pls, because it details how lots of people gets confused, especially those "truth in the middle" guys that get exploited by obnoxious lies.

Here's how it works:
 
I watched RT just after MH17 came down. They were talking about Putin's plane similarity (Though it is 4 vs 2 engines, but shown from the side not visible. Not mentioning Putin travelling far far to the north.. ) Constantly mentioning how Ukraine had done this before. (An, accident, how the fuck is that relevant. Russia/SU has also shot down airliners before by accident.)

Before anyone knew anything, they desperately tried to put the blame on Ukraine. Then they continued to cook up stories.. About SU-25s (That would struggle immensely to reach that height. And why not use SU-27 that can easily reach it?)  ..... Everything that comes after is just desperate clinging, trying to place the blame..

The only thing they did was reveal their desperate will to lie to put the blame on someone else. Now you know their attitude. They are not searching for truth.

Tovi, the people in mainstream Russian media see themselves as media warriors in a media war. And because they have grown up in a lying Russian&Ukrainian reality (USSR and post-USSR) They just assume western media is lying too. Just that they are better at it than them, so they try harder.

IDK what more to say. Just go to Russia or Ukraine, speak with some russians/ukrainians and get a grip on the mentality there and absurd reality there.

[DonNicko]

IDK what more to say. Just go to Russia or Ukraine, speak with some russians/ukrainians and get a grip on the mentality there and absurd reality there.

Tovi you don't need to go to Russia, you can speak with me.

Thomek started good in analysing your posts but failed in the end, first of all RF blamed Ukraine that they didn't close the air in the war zone, so this is their fault by ICAO laws. Second RT didn't say that Ukraine shot this plane, but said that they could and gave prooves that at this moment there were three ukraine BUK system. Third USA stated that they have direct prooves that this was russian BUK and RF is guilty for this crash and despite EU didn't want to make new sanctions against Russia they did it after this crash.
The only thing they did was reveal their desperate will to lie to put the blame on someone else. Now you know their attitude. They are not searching for truth you need to watch UN briefings and you will see who is trying to find the truth and who not. So your statements smell a little bit like a shit
And now try to answer some questions: 1) Why RF needed to shoot this plane? 2) Why separatists need a BUK without a special system, if they can shoot ukranian planes and helicopters with weapons they had before?

[Tovi]

I'm not sure of anything about the plane. But impacts in the cockpit means frontal impact, wich is quite impossible with a missile guided by infra-red.
Anyway, you should have noticed than all western leaders have accused Russia and Putin since the begining of the story. Without any evidence, of course. Obama can lie, the bad guy will be Putin in our media. At least, we can conclude than western media are not objective.

About dissidence funding in Ukraine. Actualy it's not the CIA job. Of course, they have some contact but they do not "pay" anybody. It works with some NGO like the Soros Fundation (OSF), the NED (led by McCain) and many others. Activists are mainly trained in Serbia via OTPOR. This system is the same for many "colored revolutions", like Tunisia, Georgia etc. or even Hong Kong.

(click to show/hide)

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OTPOR logo at Hong Kong

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Same in Egypt

McCain is the big boss of these operations.
You can see him at Maidan :

McCain is also the guys who negociate less democratic revolutions, like in Syria.
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McCain negociating with the Daech leader Al Bagdadi, and Al Nostra (Al Qaida)

They actually try to do the same revolution in Russia. That's why Putin wants to forbid and expel some of these NGO.
USAID is known, since a long time, to be a hive of CIA agents. That's why they have been kicked out from Bolivia by Evo Morales.

Here is the way they work : they found a local politician, with some liberal positions, mainly pro-west. They give him many favors, like big amount of money, like "we don't ask you anything, we like your style, so take this money and try to win the next election". Once elected (if so), they come back and say "do you remember us ?".

[Molly]

Yea, that fist is totally some NGO logo and not the symbol for revolution all over the world for decades...

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Oh Tovi

[Thomek]

Tovi you don't need to go to Russia, you can speak with me.

Thomek started good in analysing your posts but failed in the end, first of all RF blamed Ukraine that they didn't close the air in the war zone, so this is their fault by ICAO laws. Second RT didn't say that Ukraine shot this plane, but said that they could and gave prooves that at this moment there were three ukraine BUK system. Third USA stated that they have direct prooves that this was russian BUK and RF is guilty for this crash and despite EU didn't want to make new sanctions against Russia they did it after this crash.
The only thing they did was reveal their desperate will to lie to put the blame on someone else. Now you know their attitude. They are not searching for truth you need to watch UN briefings and you will see who is trying to find the truth and who not. So your statements smell a little bit like a shit
And now try to answer some questions: 1) Why RF needed to shoot this plane? 2) Why separatists need a BUK without a special system, if they can shoot ukranian planes and helicopters with weapons they had before?

1. Nobody wanted to shoot down this plane. None. No, I don't believe RF or separatists are evil. I don't even believe Putin is evil. I believe it was done by separatists somehow, and probably with RF supplied BUK. They probably misidentified the plane, or were too trigger-happy.  Maybe because of quick and dirty training in RF, or old BUK vets that hadn't touched in years. I don't know. I just know that that is the most plausible story here.  (Ukr. didn't do it because  there were no air-threats from separatists. ) Nicko, you are russian, you know how things work there.

2. Igla's and manpads generall can only reach targets at up to 3km altitude. Airliners fly at 10-11km. SU-25 operates at low altitudes with direct fire. Same as helicopters. Now.. interesting thing is that few days before, rebels shot down at UKR army plane at 5km ("safe" altitude against manpads) and UKR thought RF had shot it down with fighter jets.  Most likely it was that same rebel BUK.  (observed various places missing 2 missiles after MH17.)




TOVI:
Your ignorance is just staggering. BUK is not an IR system but radar based..

I never denied US foreign policy is often shit, cynical and plain out stupid, but that doesn't make a single action from RF RIGHT. U need to learn to hate both sides here. That's the last effort I will make to convince you of anything.

[Tovi]

1. Nobody wanted to shoot down this plane. None. No, I don't believe RF or separatists are evil. I don't even believe Putin is evil. I believe it was done by separatists somehow, and probably with RF supplied BUK. They probably misidentified the plane, or were too trigger-happy.  Maybe because of quick and dirty training in RF, or old BUK vets that hadn't touched in years. I don't know. I just know that that is the most plausible story here.  (Ukr. didn't do it because  there were no air-threats from separatists. ) Nicko, you are russian, you know how things work there.

2. Igla's and manpads generall can only reach targets at up to 3km altitude. Airliners fly at 10-11km. SU-25 operates at low altitudes with direct fire. Same as helicopters. Now.. interesting thing is that few days before, rebels shot down at UKR army plane at 5km ("safe" altitude against manpads) and UKR thought RF had shot it down with fighter jets.  Most likely it was that same rebel BUK.  (observed various places missing 2 missiles after MH17.)




TOVI:
Your ignorance is just staggering. BUK is not an IR system but radar based..

I never denied US foreign policy is often shit, cynical and plain out stupid, but that doesn't make a single action from RF RIGHT. U need to learn to hate both sides here. That's the last effort I will make to convince you of anything.

AsI said, I have no particular opinion about who shot it. I'm just sceptical. A missile shot by an Ukrainian fighter could have IR system. And this option is defended by Russia, so, as you can see I don't defend any side.


@ Molly : inform yourself about OTPOR.
Technically, the formation center is called CANVAS, managed by Srdja Popovic (ex Otpor leader), in Serbia. He trained many activists from Tunisia, Egypt, Georgia, Ukraine etc.). He receive money from IRI (McCain), the OSI (Soros) and Freedom House. In Hong Kong, the OCLP was not directly trained by CANVAS but they applied the same methods and are congratulated by Srdja Popovic.
In Hong Kong the OCLP gets money from the Hong Kong Human Rights Monitor (HKHRM), led by Yuk-kai Law. THis organization receveid 1 million$ from the NED (according to their website). Their program (autonomy of HK, free elections etc.) is established by the NDI the (National Democratic Institute, another American NGO linked to the Democrat party).
All those NGO infiltrate local universities to detect potential political leaders. They fund them, they pay them a trip in the USA to get some "links" (business, politic or CIA) and come back to their country.
It's not really new, the US empire always worked this way.
Everything I say can be verified, because it's not secret, this is not a "conspiracy", this is the way this world works. Revolutions do not sprout from nowhere.

[Kafein]

Tovi, I'm seriously trying to guess what it would take in your eyes for any kind of major NGO to not be subject to a conspiracy theory. What you base your accusations on basically describes all of them.

[Christo]

Actually many missiles blow up and send shrapnel to shred the target. Like a flying shotgun of doom.

This is especially true of anti-air missiles. And the Russian Buk/SA-11 missile is shrapnel based.

Multiple impacts checks out.

✓ Another field where Tovi has no idea what he is talking about

Good god Tovi is there anything that you can actually understand?

[DonNicko]

1. Nobody wanted to shoot down this plane. None. No, I don't believe RF or separatists are evil. I don't even believe Putin is evil. I believe it was done by separatists somehow, and probably with RF supplied BUK. They probably misidentified the plane, or were too trigger-happy.  Maybe because of quick and dirty training in RF, or old BUK vets that hadn't touched in years. I don't know. I just know that that is the most plausible story here.  (Ukr. didn't do it because  there were no air-threats from separatists. ) Nicko, you are russian, you know how things work there.

What I think, that it can be made by separatists or ukranian army or russians, I don't know exactly, because of that I don't state who made this, but when people start to blame RF, I write another version. Ukr. didn't do it because  there were no air-threats from separatists Indeed, that was the question from RF officials, why Ukr. army had three BUK system on that territory, if there is no air-threats from separatists. RF showed that 16 of July they were on the base, on 17 they were opened on the field where plane crashed, and 18. of july the moved back to the base. And why USA forced EU to make new sanctions against RF without any investigation?

2. Igla's and manpads generall can only reach targets at up to 3km altitude. Airliners fly at 10-11km. SU-25 operates at low altitudes with direct fire. Same as helicopters. Now.. interesting thing is that few days before, rebels shot down at UKR army plane at 5km ("safe" altitude against manpads) and UKR thought RF had shot it down with fighter jets.  Most likely it was that same rebel BUK.  (observed various places missing 2 missiles after MH17.)

Yes I heard from UKR media that RF used nukes at airport and new high-tech bullets and alien weapon

[Tovi]

Tovi, I'm seriously trying to guess what it would take in your eyes for any kind of major NGO to not be subject to a conspiracy theory. What you base your accusations on basically describes all of them.

There is no "conspiracy", they just bet on your ignorance. These NGO do not hide anything, just go to their web site. Inform yourself, I don't ask anybody to trust me but to make its own research.
Why so much people vote for people they don't know ? All informations are available now. Inform himself is a citizen duty.

[Kafein]

There is no "conspiracy", they just bet on your ignorance. These NGO do not hide anything, just go to their web site. Inform yourself, I don't ask anybody to trust me but to make its own research.
Why so much people vote for people they don't know ? All informations are available now. Inform himself is a citizen duty.

You should start a political career, evading questions seems to come naturally. In fact you are commenting further on the absurdity of the connections you make. Yes, all the information is available, precisely because governments donating to NGOs isn't really something out of the ordinary or particularly disturbing.

[lombardsoup]

You should start a political career, evading questions seems to come naturally. In fact you are commenting further on the absurdity of the connections you make. Yes, all the information is available, precisely because governments donating to NGOs isn't really something out of the ordinary or particularly disturbing.

Run for office bra

[Tovi]

Porochenko seems to be not anymore the favorite of Washington (military failure doesn't help). According to the Saker, there is a very real possibility that many deathsquad leaders (aka “volunteer battalion commanders”) will make it into the Rada, especially Lyashko.



(evading questions ? What questions ?)

[Christo]

(evading questions ? What questions ?)

The entire fucking thread.

You spout bullshit, get destroyed via argumentation again and again, and type even more bullshit, and this repeats.

Check your post history, if you don't believe it. Or you might have some disorder or something.
Not knowing how basic things work and having your 'own' moronic interpretations kinda supports this idea.

[lombardsoup]

The entire fucking thread.

You spout bullshit, get destroyed via argumentation again and again, and type even more bullshit, and this repeats.

Check your post history, if you don't believe it. Or you might have some disorder or something.
Not knowing how basic things work and having your 'own' moronic interpretations kinda supports this idea.

He's not allowed to shitpost on one of the premier shitposting boards?

Besides, its in off topic.  He's being on topic by being off topic.