Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DonNicko]

Either you point me to at least REMOTELY credible sources citing the "majority want to join russia" or gtfo.

Now if you will not show me where I said that majority wanted to join Russia, then you are blind and again russian hater who sank in his butthurts and it will prove that there is no point to speak to you

[Kuujis]

Now if you will not show me where I said that majority wanted to join Russia, then you are blind and again russian hater who sank in his butthurts and it will prove that there is no point to speak to you

Fuck you, I'm too lazy to play this game again. At first - minority wanted "more autonomy", then minority wanted "to join russia", now they want "separate states" or some such shit (still can figure out - 1, 2 or 3?). Is there a difference? Should random armed gangs with leadership comprised of people known to be associated with russian intelligence agencies be tollerated, reasoned with and treated as "representatives" of... whatever the hell they proclaim themselves to be representatives of? Apply this to russia, to say... Kaliningrad, or Pomerania. If this happened there, with Polish or Lithuanians or Fins as the heads of the so called "movements" - what response would you recommend, if they ignored you and continued to cause bullshit?

[DonNicko]

Fuck you, I'm too lazy to play this game again. At first - minority wanted "more autonomy", then minority wanted "to join russia", now they want "separate states" or some such shit (still can figure out - 1, 2 or 3?). Is there a difference? Should random armed gangs with leadership comprised of people known to be associated with russian intelligence agencies be tollerated, reasoned with and treated as "representatives" of... whatever the hell they proclaim themselves to be representatives of? Apply this to russia, to say... Kaliningrad, or Pomerania. If this happened there, with Polish or Lithuanians or Fins as the heads of the so called "movements" - what response would you recommend, if they ignored you and continued to cause bullshit?

You just proved that there is no point to discuss it with you, about our lands, if there were majority of Polish or Lithuanians or Fins then it could be, it has already happened in Tatarstan where I live, here more then half are Tatars and they wanted to seperate in 90's, so Moscow gave a lot of freedom and federalization, Tatarstan had their own army in 90's, hymn and flag and many preferences, so no war was here. Now it's just great region with own culture, all people need to learn Tatar in schools, so I can speak Tatar even I'm pure russian. Because of that I blame ukranian authorities for killing so many civilians. Last comment to you

[Anuran]

Open your fucking eyes, instead of trusting shit putlers media feeds you.

You say that someone should open his eyes and stop believing the media? You are really saying that? xD
Who said, meant or connoted "Putler, evil Russia gonna take all of Ukraine, Europe and maybe the world tomorrow, USA is our world savior, friendly and peaceful Ukraine needs to be saved!"?

Yep, they fight for democracy:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Apeasing a bully that russia is DID NO WORK already, why should ANYONE trust that russia will stop, unless it meets force?

The evil Russian has to be defeated under all circumstances before it's too late!

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

For me it really seems like your argumentation is degenerating to simple anti-russian hate due to massive infatuation from media... It's not my intention to support Putin or Russian media here. I know that Russian media lie very often or don't tell the whole truth very often. But that may not make you sure that the western media are 100% objective and telling 100% truth. Recently there was a demonstration in Moscow (which was granted by Moscow!) against Putin's Ukraine politics. There was an article about it in German media. But what our media didn't tell: there are also many demonstrations in Germany and other western countries. People demonstrating against "our" Ukraine politics. Both sides do many and heavy mistakes but ignoring or whitewashing one side doesn't help anyone...
Many accusations against Russia I've read here can easily be reflected on the western side too...
Recommending Tovi's video.

[Kuujis]

You just proved that there is no point to discuss it with you, about our lands, if there were majority of Polish or Lithuanians or Fins then it could be, it has already happened in Tatarstan where I live, here more then half are Tatars and they wanted to seperate in 90's, so Moscow gave a lot of freedom and federalization, Tatarstan had their own army in 90's, hymn and flag and many preferences, so no war was here. Now it's just great region with own culture, all people need to learn Tatar in schools, so I can speak Tatar even I'm pure russian. Because of that I blame ukranian authorities for killing so many civilians. Last comment to you

Did I? Care to shed your ideas, about what is it exactly and when and who wanted in these so called "rebel" countries?

"about our lands, if there were majority of Polish or Lithuanians or Fins then it could be" - now THIS I do not see happening somehow... sorry, but this is a wishful dream you are having, which relates with reality approximately... in no way. russia is against accepting new NATO members in balkans (because they have no right to choose, without russias approval, DUH), but would allow separatism in some random place incited by a random neighbor coupled with russian smearing propaganda? I just don't see this happening No fucking way. I'm not sure, how you see it possible... Siberia had some ideas about federalism, those were... shall we say "squashed quickly"?

As to your Tatarstan being a good example - there are bad examples of Chechnya, which was ruined, because they did not agree with what they were offered. Also - "had their own army" is as vocal as you can get. These eastern "rebels" WERE offered wider autonomy and chance to negotiate, but they did not even agree to negotiate, since they had support of russia. Talking is something Tatarstan actually DID. So lets spot the differences:
1. There was no calling russian or tatar peoples naztees and vice versa, of which russia is guilty till the neck and more, and as a reaction to that - vice versa is true too.
2. Tatarstan actually negotiated and gave up the army it had, neither of which happened with the separatists, even though they had their chance.
3. Tatarstan was NOT supported, encouraged, armed and brainwashed by some external force, all 3 of which happened in Ukraine east and Crimea.
So how is this comparison with your beloved Tatarstan applicable?

Because of that I blame ukranian authorities for killing so many civilians. Good to know that. Please tell this to the mass grave inhabitants, which were found in Slovyansk after rebels were expelled. Definitely - only the government was killing civilians. Cool story bro. Like... that family, which got shot up in a car few moths ago escaping from rebel town... yeah...

You say that someone should open his eyes and stop believing the media? You are really saying that? xD
Who said, meant or connoted "Putler, evil Russia gonna take all of Ukraine, Europe and maybe the world tomorrow, USA is our world savior, friendly and peaceful Ukraine needs to be saved!"?

Yep, they fight for democracy:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

The evil Russian has to be defeated under all circumstances before it's too late!

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

For me it really seems like your argumentation is degenerating to simple anti-russian hate due to massive infatuation from media... It's not my intention to support Putin or Russian media here. I know that Russian media lie very often or don't tell the whole truth very often. But that may not make you sure that the western media are 100% objective and telling 100% truth. Recently there was a demonstration in Moscow (which was granted by Moscow!) against Putin's Ukraine politics. There was an article about it in German media. But what our media didn't tell: there are also many demonstrations in Germany and other western countries. People demonstrating against "our" Ukraine politics. Both sides do many and heavy mistakes but ignoring or whitewashing one side doesn't help anyone...
Many accusations against Russia I've read here can easily be reflected on the western side too...
Recommending Tovi's video.

But that may not make you sure that the western media are 100% objective and telling 100% truth. Let me find, where I said that... sorry ... searching... can't. Can you? So stfu.
Oh... yeah, I saw one of those "in support of russia" gatherings, being directed by RT(or some other? not that there is a difference) camera man in Italy iirc... That was a funny one... With old pensioneers n shit! Then later the actual show with serious faces and all that other "junta" shit. Another cool story well made!

Trying to compare russian "media" with western one... well... you CAN try, but ... well... Western ones get poked and joked about, when they make a mistake, then they even publish apologies sometimes... in putlers russia? You just go with "whataboutism" and all is well 

The rally in Moscow was second of this type. One interesting question I and a friend raised during our lunch break - where was the opposing "supporting" rally... then we kind of figured - its hard to support something that is NOT happening, right?

[Leshma]

russia is against accepting new NATO members in balkans (because they have no right to choose, without russias approval, DUH),

Croatia and Slovenia are NATO members. Bosnia is very problematic, not really unified country and still under foreign protectorate. Also filled with thousands of allahu snakbars. Albania is member. Monteblack in spanish is newborn country and was part of the  bigger state that was bombed by NATO. Macedonia is a different kind of trouble, last couple of years plagued by albanian terrorism threat. Kosovo is still a hot topic and don't really need to become NATO member anytime soon, because they are already under American boot (Bondsteel is the biggest NATO base in south-eastern Europe). At last, Serbia has been bombed by NATO and there is no way in hell Serbs will approve NATO membership any time soon, regardless of Russian stance on that subject. Hatred between Serbs and NATO is fresh and a lot stronger than hatred you feel towards Russia.

[Lt_Anders]

Did I? Care to shed your ideas, about what is it exactly and when and who wanted in these so called "rebel" countries?

"about our lands, if there were majority of Polish or Lithuanians or Fins then it could be" - now THIS I do not see happening somehow... sorry, but this is a wishful dream you are having, which relates with reality approximately... in no way. russia is against accepting new NATO members in balkans (because they have no right to choose, without russias approval, DUH), but would allow separatism in some random place incited by a random neighbor coupled with russian smearing propaganda? I just don't see this happening No fucking way. I'm not sure, how you see it possible... Siberia had some ideas about federalism, those were... shall we say "squashed quickly"?

As to your Tatarstan being a good example - there are bad examples of Chechnya, which was ruined, because they did not agree with what they were offered. Also - "had their own army" is as vocal as you can get. These eastern "rebels" WERE offered wider autonomy and chance to negotiate, but they did not even agree to negotiate, since they had support of russia. Talking is something Tatarstan actually DID. So lets spot the differences:
1. There was no calling russian or tatar peoples naztees and vice versa, of which russia is guilty till the neck and more, and as a reaction to that - vice versa is true too.
2. Tatarstan actually negotiated and gave up the army it had, neither of which happened with the separatists, even though they had their chance.
3. Tatarstan was NOT supported, encouraged, armed and brainwashed by some external force, all 3 of which happened in Ukraine east and Crimea.
So how is this comparison with your beloved Tatarstan applicable?

Not sure if true, but your "Free Tartarstan" seems to not be a truely "Free" area.
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-183351

Probably the most "damning" part of it.

All of this is happening at the same time that the Russian

Federation cynically and hypocritically recognized the independence of

the Georgian republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. One can only ask

what is the difference between the rights of the aforementioned

republics and Tatarstan - a Russian colony? It is absolutely clear -

there is no difference. The truth is that Russia practically enslaved

the people of these republics by converting them into their citizens.

Consequently, for Tatars there is no hope any more for the good will of

the Russian colonizers to accomplish any kind of decolonization

whatsoever.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Trying to compare russian "media" with western one... well... you CAN try, but ... well... Western ones get poked and joked about, when they make a mistake, then they even publish apologies sometimes... in putlers russia? You just go with "whataboutism" and all is well 

This is something I tell many friends IRL as well. So many people think they are so clever, because they believe to see right through the western media 'propaganda'. But they never realize that while western media are often bending the meaning, taking fragments out of context or being otherwise shitty (mostly because of fucked up economical reasons) this is still far away from the shittiness russian medias are producing, i.e. just making things up and actively falsifying videos, documents or pictures for the (political) purpose.

And of course, I know your answer, you are just so much more clever than me because you see the western medias are doing at the least the same things only even more sophisticated and malicious so they deceive people like me. Come on, wake up.

[DonNicko]

Talking is something Tatarstan actually DID. So lets spot the differences:
1. There was no calling russian or tatar peoples naztees and vice versa, of which russia is guilty till the neck and more, and as a reaction to that - vice versa is true too.
2. Tatarstan actually negotiated and gave up the army it had, neither of which happened with the separatists, even though they had their chance.
3. Tatarstan was NOT supported, encouraged, armed and brainwashed by some external force, all 3 of which happened in Ukraine east and Crimea.
So how is this comparison with your beloved Tatarstan applicable?

Kuujis stop showing your stupidness and aknowledge of the situation here. Seems you make statements without any investigation, you have a gift to write so many words and nothing at once. For your stupidness:
1) That time you can't take a job if you don't speak Tatar or not tatar, there was propoganda against Russia, russians and tatars hated each other that time, something left nowadays but only in old people
2) Tatarstan didn't negotiate they took everything they wanted.
3) They were supported by arabic countries especially bu Saudi Arabia, we have some mosques and military schools built by them, actually military school is closed by now because of terrorism, this schooll were 500 meters from mine.
Kuujis you always talk about something you don't know or only heard in your medias. Because of that I try not to speak to you, but your stupidness forces me, because I think people who read it will think another way.
About Chechnya, please I wrote previously, read a history first, Russia gave them their independance, but there started a civil war.

[Kuujis]

Croatia and Slovenia are NATO members. Bosnia is very problematic, not really unified country and still under foreign protectorate. Also filled with thousands of allahu snakbars. Albania is member. Monteblack in spanish is newborn country and was part of the  bigger state that was bombed by NATO. Macedonia is a different kind of trouble, last couple of years plagued by albanian terrorism threat. Kosovo is still a hot topic and don't really need to become NATO member anytime soon, because they are already under American boot (Bondsteel is the biggest NATO base in south-eastern Europe). At last, Serbia has been bombed by NATO and there is no way in hell Serbs will approve NATO membership any time soon, regardless of Russian stance on that subject. Hatred between Serbs and NATO is fresh and a lot stronger than hatred you feel towards Russia.

I can't really comment on the feelings "on-the-ground", but take lavrovs words for what he said - not mine. I mean - lavrov can ask the countries NOT to join, even support/trade them something for this, but call the ideas of accepting them "provocations" just because - thats an arrogance available in putlers russia only.  http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN0HO11U20140929

This is what you are left with, when you pretend to be a great country and in fact sit in words shit hole, which retains some of its importance due to 2 reasons: fossil fuels and nukes. Anything else russia can offer the world? Sadly - no. Which of these foster cooperation instead of fear and one-way dependency? None. That is the problem... and guys living in the past, like putler for example, still strive and pretend to be grand. They rape neighboring countries and then act as if they deserve respect. Oh, and then come around and accuse others of rusofobia...

[Kuujis]

Kuujis stop showing your stupidness and aknowledge of the situation here. Seems you make statements without any investigation, you have a gift to write so many words and nothing at once. For your stupidness:
1) That time you can't take a job if you don't speak Tatar or not tatar, there was propoganda against Russia, russians and tatars hated each other that time, something left nowadays but only in old people
2) Tatarstan didn't negotiate they took everything they wanted.
3) They were supported by arabic countries especially bu Saudi Arabia, we have some mosques and military schools built by them, actually military school is closed by now because of terrorism, this schooll were 500 meters from mine.
Kuujis you always talk about something you don't know or only heard in your medias. Because of that I try not to speak to you, but your stupidness forces me, because I think people who read it will think another way.
About Chechnya, please I wrote previously, read a history first, Russia gave them their independance, but there started a civil war.

1. Propaganda against russians (i.e. minority number-wise againt majority-number-wise) is not the same as russian bullshit against Ukraine. Scale, finances, capabilities were different. Also - I don't remember much calling of naztees one way or another... do you? Because if there is ONE thing defining this conflict russia manufactured it is the idea about"naztee junta" which was shoved so deep in the throat of russians, that they swallow it and rejoice.
2. Tatarstan declared independence via a internationaly monitored referendum. Which russia does not care about. Now the president is set by moscow, usage of latin alphabet is prohibited, muslims are being repressed. Cool story bro. And that CNN article Anders linked - it says "Recently it has deprived the Tatars of the opportunity to teach their children in Tatar" - who is lying?
3. There was support you say... Well then, the Ukraine has all the support it can get from western countries + NATO. Much good it did to it. And vice versa - separatists have no support by russia whatsoever, but russian army still came over the border, trained and supplied the idiots. So there, two kinds of support. Which of these Tatarstan had?

In chechnya - it was indeed NOT russian troops stirring BS </irony> and just because civil war started there it was the good guy russia which came, leveled the fuck out of Grozno and other towns with heavy artillery, caused innumerable attrocities, installed freak of a dictator and then ended the war the way it saw fit. Another cool story dude. Completely different from how suddenly Ukraines rebels should be handled. Care to get some more consistency in dealing with armed rebellions?

[DonNicko]

1. Propaganda against russians (i.e. minority number-wise againt majority-number-wise) is not the same as russian bullshit against Ukraine. Scale, finances, capabilities were different. Also - I don't remember much calling of naztees one way or another... do you? Because if there is ONE thing defining this conflict russia manufactured it is the idea about"naztee junta" which was shoved so deep in the throat of russians, that they swallow it and rejoice.
2. Tatarstan declared independence via a internationaly monitored referendum. Which russia does not care about. Now the president is set by moscow, usage of latin alphabet is prohibited, muslims are being repressed. Cool story bro. And that CNN article Anders linked - it says "Recently it has deprived the Tatars of the opportunity to teach their children in Tatar" - who is lying?
3. There was support you say... Well then, the Ukraine has all the support it can get from western countries + NATO. Much good it did to it. And vice versa - separatists have no support by russia whatsoever, but russian army still came over the border, trained and supplied the idiots. So there, two kinds of support. Which of these Tatarstan had?

In chechnya - it was indeed NOT russian troops stirring BS </irony> and just because civil war started there it was the good guy russia which came, leveled the fuck out of Grozno and other towns with heavy artillery, caused innumerable attrocities, installed freak of a dictator and then ended the war the way it saw fit. Another cool story dude. Completely different from how suddenly Ukraines rebels should be handled. Care to get some more consistency in dealing with armed rebellions?

Kuujis you are so stupid indeed, you want to teach me about the place where I live? 
Saudi Arabia already built military school in my town, and they would supply with men and weapon if needed, but Tatarstan took everything what they wanted, because of that no civil war started here. You are so stupid to understand this? I have tatar school №29 under my windows where people speak only on tatar and teach only on tatar, so who is lying now. You believe everything that against Russia, you are just russian hater, and who hates something can't think objectively.
Chechnya has even more independance then Tatarstan, you don't know the situation, russian hater, yes Russia turned civil war in Chechnya into it's own interests. Tell me the country who wouldn't do it. Somebody cover it with democracy, somebody with religion, it's all politics and people greed. I don't agree that Russia sent troops to Chechnya, many of them were killed. Russia must act like USA political help, weapon and money that's all.

[Kuujis]

Kuujis you are so stupid indeed, you want to teach me about the place where I live? 
Saudi Arabia already built military school in my town, and they would supply with men and weapon if needed, but Tatarstan took everything what they wanted, because of that no civil war started here. You are so stupid to understand this? I have tatar school №29 under my windows where people speak only on tatar and teach only on tatar, so who is lying now. You believe everything that against Russia, you are just russian hater, and who hates something can't think objectively.
Chechnya has even more independance then Tatarstan, you don't know the situation, russian hater, yes Russia turned civil war in Chechnya into it's own interests. Tell me the country who wouldn't do it. Somebody cover it with democracy, somebody with religion, it's all politics and people greed. I don't agree that Russia sent troops to Chechnya, many of them were killed. Russia must act like USA political help, weapon and money that's all.

OFC I'm stupid for pointing out comparisons of oranges and apples. Of course. No doubt. Because Saudi Arabia being  thousands of KM away and building a school or a few is the same as russia supplying guns, ammo, tanks and finally its own troops to the so-called "rebels". There was not much chance to change anything for Tatarstan due to geographical location and available physical support, and it was completely opposite in eastern Ukraine. I'm not even going to call you stupid for willfully ignoring this.

Can I ask you a personal question? Are you of tatar descent or not?
And for the record - I don't believe everything I read, thats why I ask. Even your "personal view from your window" is subject to a healthy dose of skepticism, because you may or may not belong to a subset of society, which does or does not not feel repressed (e.g. due to descent or other reasons), but there are to many "russia for true russians" movements in russia for me to actually buy into your story of "everything is fine with our minorities, etc". Because I'm that stupid

Russia turned civil war in Chechnya into it's own interests. Tell me the country who wouldn't do it. I believe you have some problems evaluating your behavior, when you post shit like this. If someone else goes around raping - is it ok for you to do so too? Because in effect - thats what you are stating. And no, its NOT ok. You and your fucked up country of brainwashed sheep should NOT act like this. If Baltic states were NOT Nato - we would have some of you fucking boots in our countries "saving russian speakers" like naztee Germany did. THAT is why you have russofobia and THAT is why everyone and their grand mothers from russia's neighbors want to move away from you. And acting like a spoiled brat does not help your case. All I see now is a humiliated russia left next to a broken bucket finding guilty parties everywhere else, except at home. Get your act together, become the next Saudi Arabia (there is potential for that with all the natural resources at your disposal), show a GENUINELY BETTER alternative and then you won't have to shove the pro-russian choices at the point of a gun (be it gas pipe or actuall nuke).

I don't agree that Russia sent troops to Chechnya, many of them were killed. Did you ever check, how many CIVILIANS your country killed there? Russian soldiers I could not care less about.

[DonNicko]

Can I ask you a personal question? Are you of tatar descent or not?
And for the record - I don't believe everything I read, thats why I ask. Even your "personal view from your window" is subject to a healthy dose of skepticism, because you may or may not belong to a subset of society, which does or does not not feel repressed (e.g. due to descent or other reasons), but there are to many "russia for true russians" movements in russia for me to actually buy into your story of "everything is fine with our minorities, etc". Because I'm that stupid

Yes because of that you are stupid, Tatars in Tatarstan not minority but majority, I was born here but I'm russian, three of 4 of my friends are tatars. Russians has been repressed here in 90's. All high ranked state positions belongs to tatars. All presidents and mayors are tatars, you can't be high ranked here if you are russian, just this is culture.

You state this, russian hater

Everyone and their grand mothers from russia's neighbors want to move away from you.

Just proves again your stupidness in this question.

Sometimes I think that if you were in the burning house, and russian will tell it to you, you will just ignore it and don't believe.
Please stop writing your logical statements it is so boring to read them, too many letters, can you write briefly without chatterboxing a shit

[Kuujis]

Yes because of that you are stupid, Tatars in Tatarstan not minority but majority, I was born here but I'm russian, three of 4 of my friends are tatars. Russians has been repressed here in 90's. All high ranked state positions belongs to tatars. All presidents and mayors are tatars, you can't be high ranked here if you are russian, just this is culture.

You state this, russian haterJust proves again your stupidness in this question.

Sometimes I think that if you were in the burning house, and russian will tell it to you, you will just ignore it and don't believe.
Please stop writing your logical statements it is so boring to read them, too many letters, can you write briefly without chatterboxing a shit

Tatars in tatarstan are NOT majority according to census http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan#cite_note-2010Census-9. So yeah, I'm stupid Biggest ethnic group? Yes. Majority? No.

Are leaders of Tatarstan elected in proper elections or are they set by kremlin?

"Everyone and their grandma" is a figure of speech, which illustrates the scope of neighboring countries trying to move further away from russia. Shall I help you?
Finland - old time neutrals suddenly started investigating closer ties to NATO.
Baltics, Poland - well... fall of CCCP and joining EU/NATO asap was more than clear enough I hope?
Georgia - fucked by russia, signed association agreement with EU.
Moldova - see above.
Ukraine  -see 2 lines above.
Remainder of vyshegrad - already away from russia and happy (interesting situation is with Hungary, but its a separate topic, they are not leaving NATO/EU currently AFAIK).
Exceptions? Belarus and Kazachstan. Both dictatorships, both dictators - for now - have the support of putler.
So yeah, I'm stupid and all these facts mean nothing.

Can't be brief, too much stupidity around... You know ... http://xkcd.com/386/