Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Kalam]

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/09/03/obama-transcript-nato-will-defend-estonia-latvia-lithuania/

Look at this nonsense. How are we going to 'defend' these Baltic states? That's asking for a conflict most Americans would not want.

[Christo]

And, regardless of the emotional investment you have in the situation Thomek, a coup is a coup. You can view it through rose tinted glasses if you like but that's what it is. If the Ukrainian parliament had impeached Yanukovych without the death threats from the armed protestors largely associated with the right sector camp then I guess Russia, and other people in the world could not call what happened a coup, and his overthrow would be considered legitimate by all parties involved in todays mess.

Hahahaha. Murmillus you have the face to talk about emotional investment?

Who the hell was going batshit mentalturd few pages back spamming caps lock, triple-quadposting like a mad kid?

 

Also, same thing can be said on Putin's use of the chocolate chip cookie card, annexation of crimea while using unmarked russian forces to harass Ukrainian bases, ports, taking polling stations, forging a poll then taking Crimea. Remember he even admitted he was lying about his involvement. Why is it so hard to believe that he is supporting the insurgents as well? HE is not to be trusted.

You are very naive for a conspiracytard, Christopher Greene would like you.

But you are still the retard parroting that the crimean annexation was 100% fair and democratical proccess right? And you talk about rose tinted glasses

[Murmillus_Prime]

Hahahaha. Murmillus you have the face to talk about emotional investment?

Who the hell was going batshit mentalturd few pages back spamming caps lock, triple-quadposting like a mad kid?

 

Also, same thing can be said on Putin's use of the chocolate chip cookie card, annexation of crimea while using unmarked russian forces to harass Ukrainian bases, ports, taking polling stations, forging a poll then taking Crimea. Remember he even admitted he was lying about his involvement. Why is it so hard to believe that he is supporting the insurgents as well? HE is not to be trusted.

You are very naive for a conspiracytard, Christopher Greene would like you.

But you are still the retard parroting that the crimean annexation was 100% fair and democratical proccess right? And you talk about rose tinted glasses

I have emotions, I'm human Christo. I reacted emotionally to posters here, not toward elements of the discussion which remain on topic within this thread. I recall Molly stating something about me being a waste of DNA or something similar to that, but it pressed my buttons thus the following caps spam and name calling ensued.

You need to understand the context of the manner of ones statements Christo, rather than making ignorant assumptions and strawman arguments to be able to put across a valid point.

Yes I believe Russia is supporting the separatists. No the situation in Crimea was not perfect and no 100% of the population was not behind the move nor the referendum. But considering the events that led up to it, and the events that have transpired and continue to transpire in East Ukraine, I have good reason to view it with rose tinted glasses. There is no civil war in Crimea.

100% of Ukraine is not pro-EU, 100% of Ukraine does not believe the coup government is legitimate, and yet they must now all be subject to this government? A government that now declares war on its own people, which makes the sniping and murders of the Maidan look like child play in comparison. How come your arguments are good enough when its concerning Russia or the pro-Russian separatists but not when it's concerning the Western backed Ukrainian government?

[Lt_Anders]

Ah yes. Get rid of entitlements and social programs. That will stop America from sliding further into debt. Reducing military spending, which happens to dwarf those of the next several nations clearly will not help as much as getting rid of food stamps so those poor disenfranchised black people can eat.

Come to think of it, seeing as how the US defense industry has strategically placed itself across states and counties employing hundeds of thousands of people, and seeing as how the US is their biggest customer, I guess it can be seen as a socialist jobs program.

Maybe you're on to something there Anders. Actually you're not, you're just one of those big government is evil kind of misinformed voter that while at the same time yelling shit about how socialism is bad and evil without realizing how much socialism has contributed to the wealth of America as a country.

Go look up Military Spending as Percent of GDP, and Welfare Spending as GDP.

Guess what:
Military: 3.9%
Welfare: 3%(expected to drop, was as high as 5% in 2010, more than military spending)

Also, try this:
Obama Deficits
FY 2014*: $649 bln
FY 2013: $680 bln
FY 2012: $1,087 bln
FY 2011: $1,300 bln
FY 2010: $1,294 bln

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending

All sorts of stats are there, how much is true.

Oop this isn't that other thread, oh well.
That's fucking insanse. THat's why America sucks, cause we spend way to much on everything.

And all that money UKR wishes they could have

[Kalam]

Go look up Military Spending as Percent of GDP, and Welfare Spending as GDP.

Guess what:
Military: 3.9%
Welfare: 3%(expected to drop, was as high as 5% in 2010, more than military spending)

Also, try this:
Obama Deficits
FY 2014*: $649 bln
FY 2013: $680 bln
FY 2012: $1,087 bln
FY 2011: $1,300 bln
FY 2010: $1,294 bln

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending

All sorts of stats are there, how much is true.

Oop this isn't that other thread, oh well.
That's fucking insanse. THat's why America sucks, cause we spend way to much on everything.

And all that money UKR wishes they could have

We do spend too much on everything. We also don't care as much about freedom as we say we do, since we're busy giving them up every year.

And then we try and pick a fight with the other big guy in the room.

[Swaggart]

Go look up Military Spending as Percent of GDP, and Welfare Spending as GDP.

Guess what:
Military: 3.9%
Welfare: 3%(expected to drop, was as high as 5% in 2010, more than military spending)

Also, try this:
Obama Deficits
FY 2014*: $649 bln
FY 2013: $680 bln
FY 2012: $1,087 bln
FY 2011: $1,300 bln
FY 2010: $1,294 bln

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending

All sorts of stats are there, how much is true.

Oop this isn't that other thread, oh well.
That's fucking insanse. THat's why America sucks, cause we spend way to much on everything.

And all that money UKR wishes they could have

You seem to be forgetting that welfare helps everyone whereas military spending helps your defense companies. I don't think I need to explain ratios and proportions to you.

[Thomek]

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Conspiracy nut.. Right. There are always government conspiracies to subvert the public opinion and at the same time galvanise the same public to support what on the surface appears to be a noble or just cause when really there is another agenda not disseminated through the media to the public, as per the example I provided in the other thread about retired generals attempting to galvanise support for boots on the ground or to arm the Syrian rebels in Iraq/Syria to face ISIS/Assad. On the face of it from the medias portrayal it's as though they give opinions freely based on the knowledge of their past experience in the military, when in reality they are paid for their opinions and in some cases have vested interests in on-going conflicts through the sale of arms. Therefore the media is complicit in withholding the whole truth and decides to only portray half the truth so that the argument given by the paid commentators are not detracted from.

http://www.academia.org/how-elites-subvert-policy/

While I don't agree with some information in the link posted, I quote this paragraph from the link provided, as it does seem apt in light of some of the commentators here.

"He said that the Americans do not understand important parts of policies, like trade-offs, and too often “respond to poll questions in a vacuum.” Americans, Thrall lamented, “express their feelings and emotions rather than their lack of knowledge” and these polls “reflect feelings about the president and the rest of the world,” but “don’t provide much in conventional wisdom.”"

As we've seen with this whole focus on Putin, and names childish names being disseminated such as "Putler", and the lack of focus on all actors in this mess and the overriding geopolitical aspects.

And, regardless of the emotional investment you have in the situation Thomek, a coup is a coup. You can view it through rose tinted glasses if you like but that's what it is. If the Ukrainian parliament had impeached Yanukovych without the death threats from the armed protestors largely associated with the right sector camp then I guess Russia, and other people in the world could not call what happened a coup, and his overthrow would be considered legitimate by all parties involved in todays mess.

Don't get me wrong Murmi, we can criticize corporate media and the US arms lobby all day long. Together, and we would probably agree on most of it. It's just that at a certain point, things slide over into major conspiracy theories. Might be true, some of them, but when you put a conspiracy theory on top of another one you are on thin ice. There's a whole business living off people who interested in it. And it is very entertaining. IMO it starts with 911 truthers and end at:

Just.. This isn't about that. This is about crazy and violent Putin reaction to a revolution based in the depths of the people, not a coup. This was not some general who came and took over the country. Now I agree it was not a super clean revolution, and the depths of ALL the people can be discussed. Still, don't forget that russian propaganda TV was painting Maidaners black to all of Ukraine for months before the actual fall of Yanukovich.

@Butan
The west is not Really an enemy of Russia. Just russians find it comfortable to think that way. Because if Russian people would find out what nice, peaceful, prosperous and free lives we live here in the west, they would want regime change themselves. This is why it's top priority for Putin to keep the west at an arms length.

(Having someone to blame, someone to look down at. I.ex RT, which is not the worst of russian media, runs only the most horrific stories from the west. "Balancing out" the horror stories from Russia.)

In reality there are zero reasons why Russians can't have nice lives too. They are educated, they have a rich land, they have infrastructure. The future would look promising if it were not for a totally corrupt society that is unable to better itself. (Free press and a good justice system is paramount. None of these things seems to be a priority for Putin and his thief-oligarchs.)

- Edit: bit more about conspiracies. MH17: It is most likely what it looks like. A plane falls down in the smack centre of rebel controlled territory. They brag about shooting down a plane. It is not some SU-25 that would have an extremely though time intercepting a plane on that altitude and speed, no TWO of them! shooting MH17 from TWO sides simultaneously! And that is Bullet holes! Some random OSCE guy said it looked like that, (but also said he doesnt know about such things)  (Like not every single AA rocket on the market is based on splinter charge..) BUT rebels didnt't have AA except Igla's/Manpads that can only shoot up to 3km! While 2 days before Ukraine thought RF had shot down a plane because it fell down from 5km..

[Kuujis]

Yes ceasefire is still in effect, about rebels there is no information, as they say they didn't answer this shelling yet, but maybe they are lying, anyway 20 civilians are dead

About rebels "not using artilerry on airport before trying to storm it" there is no information, IF you ignore all sources but russian ones.

<...blaberish...>
100% of Ukraine is not pro-EU, 100% of Ukraine does not believe the coup government is legitimate, and yet they must now all be subject to this government? <... blaberish...>

You DO understand, that democracy aint 100% agree with this shit or another dung? its a rule where majority elect representatives who then decide what suits their voters best (I feel like explaining this to a 5 year old... )

Given your pink-tinted-glasses - why are they applied to rebels and russia, who support A MINORITY in eastern Ukraine?

Oh, and bestest:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

(click to show/hide)

From 2012. Besides other aspects this guy also talks about a world war, which for example can save the dollar.

The guy at the start of the video - can you please clarify from which CoD/BF version is it? And then why the fuck would an even remotely reliable or WILLING TO BE reliable source would use such material in the footage?  :wink:

[DonNicko]

About rebels "not using artilerry on airport before trying to storm it" there is no information, IF you ignore all sources but russian ones.

Kuujis when you will stop being stupid? Where did you understand that I was talking about airport? When will you become smarter. I wrote about sittuation yersteday. Where I wrote about airport. You are so smart. Of course separatists had used artilerry before they started to storm. All russian TV said about it, your accusation based on your smartness? Yes?

[Kuujis]

Kuujis when you will stop being stupid? Where did you understand that I was talking about airport? When will you become smarter. I wrote about sittuation yersteday. Where I wrote about airport. You are so smart. Of course separatists had used artilerry before they started to storm. All russian TV said about it, your accusation based on your smartness? Yes?

Wait, so... erm... "about rebels there is no information, as they say they didn't answer this shelling yet, but maybe they are lying" was... what kind of statement?

From what I read - there were reports for Grad launches FROM city itself, thus no wonder these were answered by Ukrainian side. Better question is - why hide behind the civilians in the first place, but it never gets raised OR answered. You want a good example, of how NOT to hide behind trully your OWN people - see how Mariupol defenses were shelled and not the city, which would have been a LOT easier to defend and hold. A representative comparison of the fighting sides? I would not say so 100%, but a DAMNING example nevertheless.


I may have missunderstood your counter-yourself statement there, can you please forgive me and not make me cry now? 

[DonNicko]

Wait, so... erm... "about rebels there is no information, as they say they didn't answer this shelling yet, but maybe they are lying" was... what kind of statement?

From what I read - there were reports for Grad launches FROM city itself, thus no wonder these were answered by Ukrainian side. Better question is - why hide behind the civilians in the first place, but it never gets raised OR answered. You want a good example, of how NOT to hide behind trully your OWN people - see how Mariupol defenses were shelled and not the city, which would have been a LOT easier to defend and hold. A representative comparison of the fighting sides? I would not say so 100%, but a DAMNING example nevertheless.


I may have missunderstood your counter-yourself statement there, can you please forgive me and not make me cry now? 

OK, airport was in Lugansk, and this shelling as I wrote was in Donetsk, and there was some days difference between this actions, so think before writing, because there are already a lot of shittalks here.
About second, I think they will hide in towns, because if they will go on the open field they will be killed in some days. But they don't hide in the center where bombs were dropped. There were shelling in places where no separatists ever exist. In case that there is ceasefire, I think shelling 38 times is not something true.

[Kuujis]

OK, airport was in Lugansk, and this shelling as I wrote was in Donetsk, and there was some days difference between this actions, so think before writing, because there are already a lot of shittalks here.
About second, I think they will hide in towns, because if they will go on the open field they will be killed in some days. But they don't hide in the center where bombs were dropped. There were shelling in places where no separatists ever exist. In case that there is ceasefire, I think shelling 38 times is not something true.

Shelling 38 times by 38 shells?
I would check your sources, if I were you. Lugansk Air Port (or what remains of it) was south of Lganks, thus not feasible to hold, thus abandoned and Ukrainian forces retreated from there a week or even 2 weeks ago. NOW shit is going down in Donetsk Airport, which is NORTH, of Donetsk, thus possible for Ukraine to supply and hold (at least theoretically).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-86eNbeqBJE for example... If that is not grads firing from (or from VICINITY OF) living areas - I'm a moron

[Vovka]

Shelling 38 times by 38 shells?
I would check your sources, if I were you. Lugansk Air Port (or what remains of it) was south of Lganks, thus not feasible to hold, thus abandoned and Ukrainian forces retreated from there a week or even 2 weeks ago. NOW shit is going down in Donetsk Airport, which is NORTH, of Donetsk, thus possible for Ukraine to supply and hold (at least theoretically).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-86eNbeqBJE for example... If that is not grads firing from (or from VICINITY OF) living areas - I'm a moron

yeeeaaaah GRAD stands on the roof of a neighboring house 
 I heard were still cases where they stood on the dome of the Church 

(click to show/hide)

http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Distance-to-the-Horizon
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpva.info%2Fguide%2Fguidephysics%2Flength%2Fdistancetohorison%2F&edit-text=
for 9 storey its 25-30m

sry its not a wikilink ((

[Molly]

I've seen several video reports clearly showing separatists troops camping in normal living flats through out the city.
Normal flats that were either abandoned by the former owners or even flats where to people living have been kicked out told to live in another flat downstairs and stuff.

So, they do hide behind the civilian population.

[Kuujis]

yeeeaaaah GRAD stands on the roof of a neighboring house 
 I heard were still cases where they stood on the dome of the Church 

(click to show/hide)

http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Distance-to-the-Horizon
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpva.info%2Fguide%2Fguidephysics%2Flength%2Fdistancetohorison%2F&edit-text=
for 9 storey its 25-30m

sry its not a wikilink ((

I fail to realize, why do you involve calculating distance to horizon. And where was it implied, that they are on the roofs? Those rockets are lounched from launchers, which are obscured by a similar height 5 or 9 levels condo... Or do you think they are fired from as far as the horizon is and thats why the smoke illuminated by the launchers is so clearly visible and no additional obstructions are detected?