Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Angantyr]

Thanks Leshma, I've been curious about your personal account of the war.

I remember reading that most of the vast atrocities brought before the war crimes tribunal happened after the NATO bombings, which only increased the violence. (edit: found the article: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200005--.html)

[Kafein]

Name one country (that isnt part of the Russia federation) that has been taken under control by Russia or attempted to.
And "prosperous democracies", please?  democracies are massively corrupted and manipulated, prosperity-wise US/EU and most countries which applied to their influence circlejerk are on a downward slope.

Do you have anything backing up that claim?

About corruption: http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
Prosperity-wise the US and EU are losing their headstart. However, less-developed countries which tend to align themselves with the West have been growing much more rapidly than similar countries that didn't. Especially those that are still a backwater of a regional bully (Belarus and NK come to mind). The influence circlejerk of the West has been boosting commerce and prosperity without which Poland and most of the other eastern members of the EU would be far worse off. Would you say that Poland is on a downward slope?

At the end of the day, still doesnt mean Russia is doing good things back there, we all have to weight our words here; but everytime we summon worldwide geopolitical issues, the people defending the free world in this topic should become way more humble, or not speak of it anymore.

It's strange, I don't recall most of the "people defending the free world" summoning worldwide geopolitical issues in this thread. However, it has been repeatedly hammered by pro-putin guys here that any action Russia takes in Ukraine is perfectly justified because of "the encirclement of Russia" and other nationalistic nonsense.

[Butan]

It's strange, I don't recall most of the "people defending the free world" summoning worldwide geopolitical issues in this thread. However, it has been repeatedly hammered by pro-putin guys here that any action Russia takes in Ukraine is perfectly justified because of "the encirclement of Russia" and other nationalistic nonsense.

For my part, I summon it only to show similarities when there is too much false disparities or obvious examples to be made.
Let those you mention go to hell, I am as sick as you of badly thought justifications

[lombardsoup]

Do you have anything backing up that claim?

About corruption: http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
Prosperity-wise the US and EU are losing their headstart. However, less-developed countries which tend to align themselves with the West have been growing much more rapidly than similar countries that didn't. Especially those that are still a backwater of a regional bully (Belarus and NK come to mind). The influence circlejerk of the West has been boosting commerce and prosperity without which Poland and most of the other eastern members of the EU would be far worse off. Would you say that Poland is on a downward slope?

It's strange, I don't recall most of the "people defending the free world" summoning worldwide geopolitical issues in this thread. However, it has been repeatedly hammered by pro-putin guys here that any action Russia takes in Ukraine is perfectly justified because of "the encirclement of Russia" and other nationalistic nonsense.

US is well on its way downwards, it used the be the world's top exporter.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Do you have anything backing up that claim?

About corruption: http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
Prosperity-wise the US and EU are losing their headstart. However, less-developed countries which tend to align themselves with the West have been growing much more rapidly than similar countries that didn't. Especially those that are still a backwater of a regional bully (Belarus and NK come to mind). The influence circlejerk of the West has been boosting commerce and prosperity without which Poland and most of the other eastern members of the EU would be far worse off. Would you say that Poland is on a downward slope?

It's strange, I don't recall most of the "people defending the free world" summoning worldwide geopolitical issues in this thread. However, it has been repeatedly hammered by pro-putin guys here that any action Russia takes in Ukraine is perfectly justified because of "the encirclement of Russia" and other nationalistic nonsense.

I guess if we change the word justified to understand, or excuse then you might understand where anti-NATO commenters are coming from.

[Tovi]

Eastern Europa has always been richer than Russia, Ukraine or Belarus. Except, maybe, Romania and Bulgaria, wich are still very poor.

But there is another point. All those countries contracted a lot of debts to support their growth. So now they must pay back. While Russia has quite no debt and can invest in its economy and keep its sovereignty.
In long term it will pay. Look at Greece situation now.

[Kuujis]

My opinion:

West > Russia : on certain domestic/foreign matters
Russia > West : on other domestic/foreign matters
West = Russia : on some more

And on the peculiar thread-related matter of manipulative warmongering its hard to disagree about West being way more experienced and capable than Russia. To try to sidetrack to other unrelated issues (like national corruption and social issues) to show Russia as a bad country, is to me, pure smoke screen.
Sure Russia is not the perfect paradise, nowhere is, but its hard to take you guys serious, when speaking of the current Ukrainian situation. Where and when ANY western states are even slightly concerned by the Ukrainian crisis, coming here and trying to make Russia appear as the greater devil, is historical objective nonsense.


At the end of the day, still doesnt mean Russia is doing good things back there, we all have to weight our words here; but everytime we summon worldwide geopolitical issues, the people defending the" free world" in this topic should become way more humble, or not speak of it anymore.

Can you please tell us, based on what did you form your oppinion? You have been to russia? Met people there? Or read some relevant materian on RT? What exactly?

Leshma had war experience. I dare say  I had some 1990's maidan experience (that "flawless" feeling when your parents are where tanks are rollingm is just priceless, to put it in "mastercard" terms). Getting rid of russia and "bending over" to be fucked by corrupt west was the best fucking thing, that happened to my country.

Consider: who has a better understanding of both alternatives? Die-hard liar/moron murmi, who has barely an understanding about what russia actually is ON THE GROUND? You, having lived all your life in france (I assume)? Tovi, who still insists that there is naztee junta ruling Ukraine? Or Thomek, me, [PTX], who have actually SEEN, LIVED and FELT both sides?

I understand perfectly well the wishes to find common ground, something to compare, get closer and have an agreement with russia, and then maybe resolve differences and live hapily ever after together. Newsflash is this: IT DID NOT WORK, because russia can't swallow Ukraine choosing something else, than "slav world", something else than "russian values" (what are those btw, just for curiosity?). russia can't swallow it, because if somehow, by an accident and pure luck, ukraine turns out into another Poland or god forbit Estonia - russia will start to crumble from within, because people will start to ask for changes.

Oh, and just for the sake of argument - what cases "Russia > West : on other domestic/foreign matters" could you identify?

[Anuran]

In the original cold war it took decades before we had the Cuban Missile crisis and the world was on the brink of nuclear war.

Not to forget that 1959, the US stationed two packs each containing 25 PGM-19 Jupiter missiles in Turkey which were concentrated on USSR!

[Kuujis]

Not to forget that 1959, the US stationed two packs each containing 25 PGM-19 Jupiter missiles in Turkey which were concentrated on USSR!

You forgot to mention, that it is Ukraines, WEST and NATO fault (basically - everyone except russia), that russia has invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. Sounds like a "only in russia" thing.

Oh, and found this on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2gal45/xpost_for_the_hague_tribunal_summary_of_hard/ Any sceptics caring to refute some/any of these?

[Christo]

What I don't get is how damn stupid you nationalistic ones can be.

You thinking of the DNR or so called "Novorossiya" as freedomfighting angels who are the best thing ever, and talk about Ukraine as if they were chocolate chip cookie germany.

Would be funny to drop some of them into this glorious newrussia to see how their romanticized patriotic heroes would treat them 

There is no logical reason to be pro-russian if you are in the west. Unless you are a massive retard.

[lombardsoup]

You forgot to mention, that it is Ukraines, WEST and NATO fault (basically - everyone except russia), that russia has invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. Sounds like a "only in russia" thing.

Oh, and found this on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2gal45/xpost_for_the_hague_tribunal_summary_of_hard/ Any sceptics caring to refute some/any of these?

...reddit is a reputable source now?  Excuse me while I head desk.

[Vovka]

iam sure England and EU as a true europeans and lovers of democracy will fully support Scotland in their desire to self-determination. The European Union is happy to accept them, as they were a few years in the Union as a part of Britain, and Britain will allow them to use pounds sterling as the national currency, and the International Bank to allocate them credit for the development of their young democratic country. Cos its a europe the paradise of democracy and freedom

[Tibe]

There is no logical reason to be pro-russian if you are in the west. Unless you are a massive retard.

There isnt even any logical reason to be pro-russian if you are russian. More squarekilometers and more modern tanks wont reduce poverty, it just helps to ignore it for a few years and create a false sense of national pride, which is only beneficial to the people in power cause it is a way to keep angry anti-government rioters away. Or create angry pro-government rioters to counter the angry anti-government rioters.

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iam sure England and EU as a true europeans and lovers of democracy will fully support Scotland in their desire to self-determination. The European Union is happy to accept them, as they were a few years in the Union as a part of Britain, and Britain will allow them to use pounds sterling as the national currency, and the International Bank to allocate them credit for the development of their young democratic country. Cos its a europe the paradise of democracy and freedom

I know you just wrote that sounding all ironic, but it is a distinct possibility.

[Molly]

Can you apple a strawberry if you have to squeeze a potato?

Made me crack an honest smile!

And tbh... by now I've seen as many old lady-videos with "Russia better WOOHOOO!" on live leak as I've seen old ladies-videos with "This war is awful, I want those separatists to just leave to Russia."

[Kuujis]

...reddit is a reputable source now?  Excuse me while I head desk.

Oh no, not the reddit. The actual things written in the post. Would it change anything if I posted the items here? I doub it