Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 627529 times)

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Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6495 on: September 11, 2014, 09:03:00 pm »
0
Once more ignoring that separatists did this too...
What they did? you meen bombing themselves?

Offline lombardsoup

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6496 on: September 11, 2014, 09:12:19 pm »
-1
ROFL. You live in Russia right? Did you see any justice around you? Did you see uncorrupt police or government? And please, don't pull out of your ass some extreme case from the US. Most people in Europe and US live more free, with a state that protects them, than they do in RF.

You mean the EU on the brink of breaking up because nobody wants that system anymore?  Please look at your own shit before playing policeman of the world.  People are tired of your brand of interventionism in the name of MUH FREEDUMBS.

Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6497 on: September 11, 2014, 11:53:54 pm »
0
Oh I know, thats why I pulled it out ;)

I also know, that it was not (and supposedly SHOULD NOT be NOW) considered an evil act to do, because women worth was supposedly that much lower. But who gives a shit frankly. Tell me when you will start evaluating putlers BS in Ukraine not via the russian media prism "they are all naztee junta and we must protect russians" and then we can talk without poles, beams, bible and lemons.
I am zorry, I shall suck lemons and cry now!

To get back on topic: I am amazed about Ukraine once again. In bad light this time. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraine-starts-building-defensive-wall-along-border-with-russia/506828.html This did not work in pre-WW2 France, but ... what the serious fuck? :/
Now you just do name calling.

Ok, how about this:
you call volunteers mercenaries, because they get wages.
You repeatedly call Ukraine army naztees, although by all reports - there is AT BEST a minority of those, at worst - they are what one would call far-rightists, present in any society.
You repeat, that there are naztees in power in Ukraine, although there are no proofs of that, besides RT style channels.
You call me dumb (DUH!, an obvious lie).

I'm considering calling you an idiot, instead of a liar. Would that make you feel better?

There are right sector members in government and I said that the neo-Na zi groups had helped bring to power the coup government. The fact that there are neo chocolate chip cookie affiliated groups like right sector in the Ukrainian parliament does suggest that there are na zi's in power in Ukraine.

A foreign national who received wages from a state he/she is not a citizen of to fight for that state is a mercenary. Paint it how you like, that's how it is. Call me an idiot if you want, call me a liar and you're wrong.  Because clearly my statements contain truths and therefore are not outright lies like you've tried to suggest.
Dumbfuck.Fuckwit.Cuntshit.Brickfuck.

Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6498 on: September 11, 2014, 11:54:54 pm »
0
I'm still waiting Murmi...

Yeah they might even wish for impure blood flooding their furrows.


Also, it was good knowing you Vovka.

Tell Molly to deliver on my challenge first, after all it was stated long before yours. Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment.
Dumbfuck.Fuckwit.Cuntshit.Brickfuck.

Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6499 on: September 12, 2014, 12:10:39 am »
0
Yeah, just give the EU and 'murica the chance to make the situation even worse. 

There's a reason why we make fun of the west...its because they're morally bankrupt.  Putin's no saint, but he's better than the alternative.
Sadly... no. They would not make it wore. Russia, with its dreams of glorious past is making things worse. Not even 1 country joined nato by force, all were volunteers. Everyone is free to leave. Same shit with EU. Now compare this to Ukraine: annexed Crimea, civil war in east, both caused by russia.

OK, let's try, if I was an ukranian, then of course I would be angry if Crimea went to Russia. It is bad for Ukraine, and maybe good for Russia. As for me after all this conflicts, Crimea would join Russia any way, maybe later but would join. But there wasn't a war, which was on the East. As for me, Kiev should act as written in agreement of 21 february. But right sector sieged the government, Yanukovich flees, because there was real threat to be killed. New authorities should put this guys to the jail, but they made them heroes. And they were like a bosses. Illegal revolution which was supported by new authorities was a fault.
Eastern Ukraine doesn't want to become Russia, where did you get this info, where did you get that there is only minority man? If you think so then you don't know about sittuation there. Yes maybe now they think to join Russia, because of money to build and restore everything what was destroyed. Did you see russian army? me not, but I know that there are about 4000 volunteers from Russia.

Ok, lets assume, that illegal revolution is at fault... at which point does this mean, that russia may annex parts of Ukraine? Or start a civil war with all the propaganda bullshit it was spewing? Naztees left, nato and conspiracies right...junta in front... enemies all around.

rUSSIA should act as it promised in Budapest memorandum. Yanukovich should not have ordered shooting his own people. Again - how does it justify or allow russia to fuck up Ukraine? Where is the basis? And dont get me started on legitimacy... Ukraine has a legitimately elected president and legitimately elected parliament, you can word around this however you want, it would be lying to yourself first, then lying to everyone else second.

Oh... I don't know - http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/? or http://www.iri.org/NEWS-EVENTS-PRESS-CENTER/NEWS/IRI-POLL-MAJORITY-RUSSIAN-SPEAKING-CITIZENS-UKRAINE-DON%E2%80%99T-FEEL-THREATE ?

I state, that you do not know the situation either. Your circle of friends/relatives/aquitances is probably simply biased, as is normal, but DO NOT judge a situation based on that.

Regarding not seeing russian army... how about these volunteers, who have been given tanks, APC's, command vehicles and everything else a motorized brigade has?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5SbQAjbsUo

DonNicko - I SINCERELY believe you should accept the fact, that your government lied to you about your army NOT being involved. Vacations, volunteers, got lost... Everything, but the obvious. And then your government does not even allow proper burial for those citizens of yours, who died to protect putlers ambitions...

That the local population is NOT happy about the war is understandable and they indeed suffer from it. What is appaling, is that they DO NOT have any news sources, which could claim anything resembling objectivity. Instead they are being fed russian propaganda, if they are in separatist areas, or a mix or russian/ukrainian propaganda, if they are in the areas controlled by Ukraine.

But I digress - first casualty of war is truth. Some smart guy told this. Now... how NOT to have another war - one has to look at the causes. And these lie with russia ALL the way to the kremlin. So ... how should neighboring countries behave? Update their military doctrine, saying "our potential enemy in the region is russia" is the only logical step. And its noone elses fault, but your own.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6500 on: September 12, 2014, 12:19:33 am »
0
Russia will stay on the other side of the fence, but these guys hope to join EU. That doesn't bother you the slightest bit?

Quote
To be honest far-right extremism is widespread in armies everywhere, not just Russia or Ukraine.

It does bother me regardless of where it happens. My point is that the existence of small extremist groups on the fringe of a free society is inevitable, precisely due to freedom. It seems to me that Russian state propaganda is trying to argue that this is a generality in Ukraine, based on anecdotal evidence which can be found as, if not even more easily in the Russian army.

Yeah, just give the EU and 'murica the chance to make the situation even worse. 

There's a reason why we make fun of the west...its because they're morally bankrupt.  Putin's no saint, but he's better than the alternative.

Morally bankrupt? What does that even mean? We don't run to the patriarchs at the first sign of a bearded transgender? Or is it about capitalism? About that, you should know that even the US offer better social security than Russia, and I'm not even talking about European countries.

Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6501 on: September 12, 2014, 12:20:25 am »
0
There are right sector members in government and I said that the neo-Na zi groups had helped bring to power the coup government. The fact that there are neo chocolate chip cookie affiliated groups like right sector in the Ukrainian parliament does suggest that there are na zi's in power in Ukraine.

A foreign national who received wages from a state he/she is not a citizen of to fight for that state is a mercenary. Paint it how you like, that's how it is. Call me an idiot if you want, call me a liar and you're wrong.  Because clearly my statements contain truths and therefore are not outright lies like you've tried to suggest.
I think your first statement was rebuked more than needed. If you have some new material - please share. Naztees IN POWER IN UKRAINE are your fantasy. There are naztees in every country, but the closest they came to power I believe is Greece, with the far right party WINNING significant amount of parliament.

as to Neo-naztee groups helping to bring power to coup government... only the president was "couped", IF that at all, since he fled and was impeached by parliament. Then new president was elected. So... null and void argument. You call Ukraine naztee regime, because there were what... 3000 far right activists in Maidan? Of which proper "HARD CORE" was most like around 50? maybe 250? you totally out of touch with the scale of people needed to do what you claim they have done.

Thats your definition of mercenary, I applaud you for having it. However - I would say, that a volunteer who comes to fight for ideological reasons and gets paid is hardly the mercenary you want to describe. All those soldiers of russian army, who are getting paid for their "vacations" in ukraine - are they also mercenaries?

Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6502 on: September 12, 2014, 12:26:24 am »
0
Tell Molly to deliver on my challenge first, after all it was stated long before yours. Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment.

I think you're just being dense. That is, supposing you are able to be convinced of anything at all by me. I know I don't claim to be an international expert in geopolitics, which seems more important to you than formulating coherent arguments.

Offline Christo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6503 on: September 12, 2014, 12:27:48 am »
-1
Murmillus just can't let the "OMFG NAZEES CONTROL GOVRMENT IT IS HOLOCAUST" go.

Pathetic

Agreed, dense as a fucking wall
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6504 on: September 12, 2014, 05:29:52 am »
+1
Describing the morally uncorrupt RF:

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What are you talkin about, I know that in EU life is better, even Putin says this on TV. Just imagine Thomek if would live in the eastern Ukraine and one bomb got to your house and killed your wife, your children, will you say Glory to Ukraine? Because of this actions most of population on the East never will be friendly with Kiev.

If some "separatists" started a war (Made in Russia in reality, I don't think I would fall for RF propaganda, considering how obscenely overt it is.)  I would blame Russia, no one else.

Do you really believe Ukrainian army is controlled by haters of Russians who want to exterminate them?

If you do, I can only say that I'm impressed by the propaganda you are exposed to. The "N a z i s" (right sector) in Ukraine is a marginalized group that got 0.7% in the presidential election. It is true however, that they were the ones that fought the hardest and were most violent during Maidan, therefore they had their "claim to power" and got some ministers. Not to mention a non-existent police forced the new government to keep them happy, or they would turn to the streets again.

RF state controlled propaganda are using this fact to paint the whole government and armed forced of Ukraine black. (literally) Which is of course blatant lies. Russians and Ukrainians are much more alike than many other minorities inside the RF, and the huge majority of ukrainians bear no hate toward russians.

I hate to spend energy focusing on the n a z i s in Ukraine, because on the ground its not a factor at all. Just RF propaganda who wants them to be.

Anyway: Ukraine tried peaceful solution and diplomacy first, in Crimea. That obviously didn't work. RF Stole that part of the country. Now Ukr leaders learned that diplomacy with RF doesn't work. RF wants a bigger bite = War.

Ukraine had to struggle with a completely unreliable army infested with russians and 3rd columners, not able to do crap. (You saw the videos of a column of tanks stopping and turning without a shot being fired at a rebel checkpoint..) In the meantime, because their army was a useless piece of shit right sector offered to help. In a falling apart country, that is the worst, but also the only solution. Thus the "brigades" were born..

Now Ukraine has had some time to clean up their army from RF sympathizers, but I bet it's still leaking intelligence like hell and that RF forces have an easy time predicting what they are doing.. Must be a complete nightmare to be an Ukrainian army commander.

End of story: This is an aggressive war created and fought by Russia, and it is RF sole responsibility for any deaths.
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Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6505 on: September 12, 2014, 07:55:57 am »
0
(click to show/hide)
If there wasn't Odessa tradegy, civil war on the East, I could say that it is a bad action from russian side in Crimea, but now I don't know what to say, thanks that there wasn't any war. If you will see new government just left Crimea. And as I said it would join Russia anyways, but new authorities don't know how to solve problems politically, so if there wasn't referendum then war would be in Crimea too.
I see how you like to eat fakes about Russia and believe them, as I said there is no point to discuss if you want to see only one side of the medal. Everyone says that our government is lying, but since for so long time nobody can give any proofs, only some logical conclusions from their heads.

Offline Molly

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6506 on: September 12, 2014, 08:34:44 am »
+1
dafuq?
Putin:"There are no Russian soldiers in Crimea."

3 weeks later...

Putin:"Yes, there were Russian soldiers in Crimea."

Nicko:"My government never lied to us."

I am kinda speechless.

Tell Molly to deliver on my challenge first, after all it was stated long before yours. Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment.
Fuck off using me as excuse for not answering Kafein who nicely showed what kind if useless pile of gene material you are.
Poses as the big now-it-all and when someone actually argues properly against you - which you claim you wanted all along - you hide behind someone else like the coward you are.
I was actually wrong about military bases being "always" foreign territory. It only sometimes is. But what works always is Military Law. I actually thought I posted a link in here somewhere, might be I forgot and didn't but honestly, I can't be arsed anymore.
"Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment." That's the best sentence. The only person in here who is still willing to properly discuss instead of just making fun of you, and you haven't got the energy to sift through his "shit". Jesus, you're pathetic.


What they did? you meen bombing themselves?
Do you really think that every shot fired, every artillery strike ordered by the separatists never ever killed any civilians? Seriously?
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6507 on: September 12, 2014, 08:46:07 am »
-1
(click to show/hide)
If there wasn't Odessa tradegy, civil war on the East, I could say that it is a bad action from russian side in Crimea, but now I don't know what to say, thanks that there wasn't any war. If you will see new government just left Crimea. And as I said it would join Russia anyways, but new authorities don't know how to solve problems politically, so if there wasn't referendum then war would be in Crimea too.
I see how you like to eat fakes about Russia and believe them, as I said there is no point to discuss if you want to see only one side of the medal. Everyone says that our government is lying, but since for so long time nobody can give any proofs, only some logical conclusions from their heads.
IF a COLUMN of russian troops IN Ukraine is not proof enough, if putlers admitance of little-green-men being russian forces, if cargo 200 is NOT PROOFS - then sorry DonNicko, but nothing will be proof enough for you.
Another thing, that either you are willfully blind to or simply do not realize, is that Odessa tragedy, civil war, annexation of Crimea... ALL of these are effects of actions committed by russian government.

It quacks like a duck, it moves like a duck, it LOOKS like a duck, but you insist that these soldiers are some cyborgs engineered in some secret lab. Occams Razor, did you look it up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

I just had to fix this for you Molly:
<...>
Poses as the big now-it-all and when someone actually argues properly against you - which you claim you wanted all along - you hide behind someone else like the coward dumb liar you are.
<...>
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 08:56:36 am by Kuujis »

Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6508 on: September 12, 2014, 09:29:18 am »
0
IF a COLUMN of russian troops IN Ukraine is not proof enough, if putlers admitance of little-green-men being russian forces, if cargo 200 is NOT PROOFS - then sorry DonNicko, but nothing will be proof enough for you.
Another thing, that either you are willfully blind to or simply do not realize, is that Odessa tragedy, civil war, annexation of Crimea... ALL of these are effects of actions committed by russian government.

It quacks like a duck, it moves like a duck, it LOOKS like a duck, but you insist that these soldiers are some cyborgs engineered in some secret lab. Occams Razor, did you look it up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

I just had to fix this for you Molly:
Kuujis, if i will show you how nato transports 500 tanks and say that they send it to the russian border, seems according your logic you have to believe it easily. Is it nothing for you that this was captured vehicles? Or maybe you prefer to believe all anti-russian fakes? What a russian coloumn of troops? Kuujis stop spamming fakes, bring something interresting. But I think if USA cann't do this, you won't do this too. You say that Yanukovich ordered to shoot people. Really? Who told it to you? Maybe you don't know that snipers on Maidan shot from the building which was controlled by Parubii. Stop accusing me in what I've never said. What cyborgs do you speak about? Can you be smarter please, because it becomes so annoying to discuss with you.
1) There are volunteers, who are well trained
2) Separatists captured a huge amount of ukranian vehicles, what russian vehicles do you speak about
3) Green men were russian forces, that's all, protecting stradegy points of Russia. Show me russian coloumn of troops, where I can understand that they are russian army.
4) Odessa tragedy, civil war, annexation of Crimea were effects of anti-russian ukranian propoganda.

Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6509 on: September 12, 2014, 09:59:12 am »
0
Kuujis, if i will show you how nato transports 500 tanks and say that they send it to the russian border, seems according your logic you have to believe it easily. Is it nothing for you that this was captured vehicles? Or maybe you prefer to believe all anti-russian fakes? What a russian coloumn of troops? Kuujis stop spamming fakes, bring something interresting. But I think if USA cann't do this, you won't do this too. You say that Yanukovich ordered to shoot people. Really? Who told it to you? Maybe you don't know that snipers on Maidan shot from the building which was controlled by Parubii. Stop accusing me in what I've never said. What cyborgs do you speak about? Can you be smarter please, because it becomes so annoying to discuss with you.
1) There are volunteers, who are well trained
2) Separatists captured a huge amount of ukranian vehicles, what russian vehicles do you speak about
3) Green men were russian forces, that's all, protecting stradegy points of Russia. Show me russian coloumn of troops, where I can understand that they are russian army.
4) Odessa tragedy, civil war, annexation of Crimea were effects of anti-russian ukranian propoganda.

Volunteers, who managed to capture a fully prepared set of vehicles, none of them bearing any sings of damage, all lined up properly... Are you sure you want to maintain this line of thinking? Signpost in that clip is indicative of their presence in Ukraine, so there is not much doubt there.

1. Russian language has this special phrase "dobrovolno prinudytilno", meaning "forced to be volunteer", or something along those lines. I COULD believe, that the rebels were volunteers, trained and supported by russia, BEFORE the counter-offensive, which took place recently. The guys doing counter offensive? The column of troops in Ukraine speaks for itself. I do not know what volunteer troops get the chance to pick up heavy weaponry and armor on that scale. Ukraine volunteer batalions? True, light armor, no tanks, no artillery, lack of even heavier AT guns, no AA capabilities... this for me would describe volunteers. In any case - russia ALOWING its armed forces to "go on vacations for some voluntary war action" is BS of capital scale and at the same time "only in russia" category joke.
2. Now this I could believe, IF THERE WERE PROOFS. Or do you intend to maintain, that the captured vehicles did not suffer a scratch? IF these things were left in army bases before the whole separatism - where were they earlier? Hidden for 2-4 months and NOW suddenly appearing for a fight? That rings right to you somehow?
3. Green men protecting strategic points were occupants. And as for columns, where you could understand that they are russian - there are 2 neighboring countries ar war. One marks its troops clearly, another does not. Do you need more help?
4. Let me check, if I understood that well enough. Ukrainians started the maidan movement, because they had enough of Yanukovich. Then they took their own media into their hands and started portraying ALL the maidan as naztees, started "crucifying children" and "threatening ethnic cleansing", suddenly decided, that Ukraine people are mostly universally evil, because they had it enough of russia and wanted to go west. I find that impossible to swallow. What Ukraine media DID is a relatively weak attempt to counter balance the shit, which was spilling from over the border in russia, by introducing their own propaganda, but that never worked on the people, who were lied to and coerced to believe, that russia is friend, and that there is some junta, who will eat your babies and do ethnic cleansing and similar shit. I'm sorry to bring this to you, but ONLY a victim of full blown russian media bullshit could think like this. There is a lot of crap in the media, but when you are faced with "only in russia" category - its a different world... full of enemies, naztees, juntas and conspiracies. Because otherwise - russians would see what their government wants them to ignore: that there IS another way to live and LIVE WELL. As one well known musician from "Machine of time" band told - "I have not seen lies and nonsenses on the TV at this scale since the times of Brezhnev" (or it was something along those lines).

And after all this - "Ukrainian anti-russian propaganda caused all this"...  :shock: