Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Anuran]

"18+ Це Україна / This is Ukraine"


Another video about an eyewitness reporting what he saw in eastern Ukraine. His report is not really welcome in the ukrainian "Junta-TV" (German and English subtitles)

[Xant]

"18+ Це Україна / This is Ukraine"


Another video about an eyewitness reporting what he saw in eastern Ukraine. His report is not really welcome in the ukrainian "Junta-TV" (German and English subtitles)

Russian propaganda usually isn't.

[DonNicko]

Russian propaganda usually isn't.

Say it to people who lost their relatives by this shelling

[Anuran]

Russian propaganda usually isn't.

I'm not sure if he is really telling the truth, but if he isn't, the people in the studio wouldn't stew about it...

[Butan]

Russian propaganda usually isn't.

Have you even watched the video, there is no propaganda.
The worst you can say is there is a concentration of non friendly facts that may not represent the whole situation.

My bad, didnt see second one 

[Murmillus_Prime]

The information provided is not proof of its own validity. Just because someone calls themselves the "truth channel" or "international expert" doesn't mean they tell the truth. Most of those videos don't even qualify as information, but rather commentary about information which is not revealed (because the actual information they are commenting on does not exist). It's quite amazing that "underground channels" seemingly encouraging critical thinking are so determined to interpret every piece of information following their own narrative without a shred of doubt. If you want some investigative journalism you have to highlight discrepancies in the supposedly biased narrative you are fighting, not build theories upon the facts and present them as the only possible interpretation.

No, she does not. Even if we assume for a moment that the famous "leaked call" is not a fabrication (I can't prove one way or the other), what she said hardly qualifies as proof of a western-orchestrated overthrow of Yanukovich. She is talking about the negotiations to form an interim government capable of representing the EuroMaidan protesters and to organize new elections quickly. As the western powers are a logical ally of the new power in Ukraine, it only makes sense that they have an input in this. Such things happen between for example France and Germany at almost every election. Ukraine is independent of the RF and can choose with who they associate.

She is openly, heavily involving herself in Ukrainian politics and the way you go around talking is as if a nation on the other side of the globe should even have a say in the matter. American NGO's have been involved in regime change and attempted regime change in multiple nations, Ukraine is not the exception, rather is just the latest along a line of targets.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Murmi's logic is pretty shitty. However, if you believe that at least US (since there are no evidence supporting involvement of other Western govs) was not deeply engaged in Maidan and events after Maidan, you are beyond naive.

ONE phone conversation was intercepted and that was enough to sugest that US is actually deciding who should and who shouldn't be sitting in UKR government. How about hundreds of other phone conversations that public has no idea about?

My logic is not shitty. Many geopolitical analysts who've made geopolitics their life work have made comments on the Ukrainian situation contrary to the version of events shown by the Western press and governments. Nobodies like Kafeine may attempt to discredit these analysts but they have far more legitimacy and credibility than any example Kafeine and anyone in the pro-NATO anti-Russia camp on this forum can provide. I'll back my shit up and then it's picked apart by ignorant comments and the expected attacks on the source of the information and the disregarding of the open complicity displayed by American officials such as Nuland and Mccaine, but when I ask for these opposing parties to back their shit up, nothing.

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/us-atempts-to-overthrow-russian.html

Based on many of the responses here, it's as though Kafine, Molly, Kuujis will only believe the U.S, and NATO states are involved in anything only if they admit to it, if they don't admit to it then they can't have done it, that's the kind of logic I'm up against and you attack my logic? Completely laughable.

[Christo]

My logic is not shitty.

Your sources are too


Seriously, the hell is up with that blog? It's AMTV levels of ridiculous.

[Kafein]

She is openly, heavily involving herself in Ukrainian politics and the way you go around talking is as if a nation on the other side of the globe should even have a say in the matter.

But one with a common border should? Not that I think Russia should have been kept out of the negotiations, though. Also, you (I'm kidding, pretty much everybody holding the same views, not just you) are making quite a big deal of that presentation. Do you even know how presentations work? She's trying to sell her work to the audience. Trying to interpret her wording literally is about as productive as doing the same thing with the Bible.

American NGO's have been involved in regime change and attempted regime change in multiple nations, Ukraine is not the exception, rather is just the latest along a line of targets.

Your random claims are passionating.

My logic is not shitty. Many geopolitical analysts who've made geopolitics their life work have made comments on the Ukrainian situation contrary to the version of events shown by the Western press. Nobodies like Kafeine may attempt to discredit these analysts but they have far more legitimacy and credibility than any example Kafeine and anyone in the pro-NATO anti-Russia camp on this forum can provide. I'll back my shit up and then it's picked apart by ignorant comments and the expected attacks on the source of the information and the disregarding of the open complicity displayed by American officials such as Nuland and Mccaine, but when I ask for these opposing parties to back their shit up, nothing.

What are we discussing exactly? "My experts are better than yours!"? Is that what we are talking about? As you may have noticed I didn't back my analysis of your arguments with the words of anybody. I discussed the facts critically and pointed out the problems with your narrative, something none of your so-called experts did. In other words I don't need anything to back my shit up, because my shit is trivially inferred from the facts that we both admit are true.

Also please refer to me as "Kafein" not "Kafeine" it makes me feel you do that on purpose.

[Christo]

Also please refer to me as "Kafein" not "Kafeine"

'Ready to rock if you want to roll
Please step away from the vehicule'

Clutch - Kafeine

(click to show/hide)

[Kafein]

'Ready to rock if you want to roll
Please step away from the vehicule'

Clutch - Kafeine

(click to show/hide)

vehicule is drama enough for dramaturge

Based on many of the responses here, it's as though Kafine, Molly, Kuujis will only believe the U.S, and NATO states are involved in anything only if they admit to it, if they don't admit to it then they can't have done it, that's the kind of logic I'm up against and you attack my logic? Completely laughable.

Where exactly did I say that? Where did any of "Kafine, Molly, Kuujis" say that?

[Butan]

Where did any of "Kafine, Molly, Kuujis" say that?

I dont know for Molly and Kuujis, they are well known nefarious creatures, but Kafine is completely innocent!

[Murmillus_Prime]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ca_1410295489

Watch with caution, includes horrific scenes of mutilated and burned soldiers. One hour and twenty two minutes of footage on the ground in East Ukraine. War is hell, we all sit here comfortably squabbling over our views on the situation when it's the people in that situation who pay the highest price.

[Murmillus_Prime]

But one with a common border should? Not that I think Russia should have been kept out of the negotiations, though. Also, you (I'm kidding, pretty much everybody holding the same views, not just you) are making quite a big deal of that presentation. Do you even know how presentations work? She's trying to sell her work to the audience. Trying to interpret her wording literally is about as productive as doing the same thing with the Bible.

Your random claims are passionating.

What are we discussing exactly? "My experts are better than yours!"? Is that what we are talking about? As you may have noticed I didn't back my analysis of your arguments with the words of anybody. I discussed the facts critically and pointed out the problems with your narrative, something none of your so-called experts did. In other words I don't need anything to back my shit up, because my shit is trivially inferred from the facts that we both admit are true.

Also please refer to me as "Kafein" not "Kafeine" it makes me feel you do that on purpose.

I haven't been providing examples to back my analysis of the situation, I've been providing examples that back an alternate analysis to the situation portrayed by Western governments and the Western media. Since that's what your analysis and understanding of the situation stems from, a mind set formed by a Western narrative.

This has never really started off being about personal criticism or attacks, picking holes in the logic of the other, it started off with sharing opinions on the situation, and then justifying them opinions with analysis and opinions shared by experts in their field, numerous media sources, video footage and varying perspectives on the circumstances in and around the Ukrainian civil war and the involved parties in it. It only started really becoming personal, about attacks on a persons logic, their credibility, their knowledge on the subject when individuals on the thread are worn down by the endless cheap remarks and name calling tossed around by Molly, Xant, Christo and more.

In the end this thread is pointless, we could all be accused of having our heads in the sand to a degree and from varying perspectives, and I don't think we'll ever agree to disagree, therefore I'm tempted to cease posting on this thread purely based on that fact. After all, we all deserve to have an opinion but I doubt a crappy thread in a shitty corner of the internet on a dying mod will make much difference to world events. Let's just enjoy the ride and we'll find out who was right in the end, maybe?

[Christo]

therefore I'm tempted to cease posting on this thread

Oho. I remember something like this.

Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.

I will hold to your word!

It only started really becoming personal, about attacks on a persons logic, their credibility, their knowledge on the subject when individuals on the thread are worn down by the endless cheap remarks and name calling tossed around by Molly, Xant, Christo and more.

; - ; looks like I stepped over a red line, and got sanctioned, then blacklisted by Murmillus  :-(