Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Kafein]

it does not matter which one you choose, everyone is lying. on the other hand us/eu has the better PR.

The better everything really. Look, free blowjobs!

[Thomek]

Russia not selling gas/oil to the west will not work. As long as world supply is constant it's just a matter of logistics and the price rise will be minimal. They have to sell it somewhere or they fuck themselves.. Then those they sell to will buy less from the saudis, who will then sell more to the US etc etc..

But I do fear this winter might be cold as fuck, living in Poland.. perhaps very expensive too.

[Leshma]

Expensive life in Poland? You're always free to visit your homeland, as a reminder what word expensive truly means. When you guys plan to fix those roads? they are really in a bad shape for such a rich country.

[Thomek]

Oh Leshma.. 

So you were there? Beautiful nature right?

[Kuujis]

A question to residents of Ukraine - how likely is it, that Ukraine would decide to give up these "new" nations for their more-or-less true independence?
this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141946/alexander-j-motyl/putins-trap

[Butan]

A question to residents of Ukraine - how likely is it, that Ukraine would decide to give up these "new" nations for their more-or-less true independence?
this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141946/alexander-j-motyl/putins-trap

According to you and other like-minded people, NEVER! Crush them for democracy sake! Russia must not gain power at any cost!

According to history on modern wars, it heavily depends on Ukraine national morale (media+politic+military results) and possible external help.
From where I'm standing, it seems like the rebellion is gaining hold, if the help to Ukraine doesnt increase and Russia continue help the rebellion, its possible they greatly expand the rebel controlled zones. Then its possible this prospect/observation will push Ukraine to change from the old overly enthusiast "we will end war in one week" to a new "we must negotiate and stop this".

Except if the Ukraine is ready for the war of his life and go balls to the walls, its like your previous article Kuujis: if its not armed, it will surrender to terms.


That was a pretty great article by the way, +rep, advise anyone to read. Always with a pinch of salt of course 

[Beauchamp]

"funny" how eu/nato/usa powers with their shittalk about economic interests in the east etc. allowed this crisis to go so far. when putler invaded crimea they were just sitting with hands folded.

now peace will be achieved only when more russians than putin can handle will come back to russia in body bags. this is however quite problematic, since nato, eu, usa are not even able to deliver ukrainians proper weapons (while that french dickhead keeps finishing his mistral ships for russians at the same time. hell i'm ashamed for my prime minister, but i'm still lucky i'm not french).

so the other more probable alternative is, that ukrainians will give up their east (with majority of ukrainian population) to the russians. and it will end exactly this way (like in georgia). sacrifice a bit of ukraine so we can all sleep well in eu again. such is the world we live in today...

[serr]

A question to residents of Ukraine - how likely is it, that Ukraine would decide to give up these "new" nations for their more-or-less true independence?
this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141946/alexander-j-motyl/putins-trap

I would agree, and I think most population would agree as well, but there would be many who won't agree with such decision, they would likely start protesting against it and Russia would support them behind the scenes to destabilize situation.
So I'm not sure it would work.

[Kuujis]

"funny" how eu/nato/usa powers with their shittalk about economic interests in the east etc. allowed this crisis to go so far. when putler invaded crimea they were just sitting with hands folded.

now peace will be achieved only when more russians than putin can handle will come back to russia in body bags. this is however quite problematic, since nato, eu, usa are not even able to deliver ukrainians proper weapons (while that french dickhead keeps finishing his mistral ships for russians at the same time. hell i'm ashamed for my prime minister, but i'm still lucky i'm not french).

so the other more probable alternative is, that ukrainians will give up their east (with majority of ukrainian population) to the russians. and it will end exactly this way (like in georgia). sacrifice a bit of ukraine so we can all sleep well in eu again. such is the world we live in today...

You DO realize, that the same "sacrifice part of europe, so that in the end we can sleep more peacefully" was already tried and it did not work. I'm not sure we need another case.

On the other side - Ukraine (however I wish differently) would have an EXCEPTIONALLY hard fight if they intend to take-on russia, and even if I would support them wholeheartedly - its up to them to decide what they want/need more: hard fight ahead, 2 ruined regions with lots of strings attached or a real hope (some maybe would say SEMI-real) for true independence from russia.

The key issue with giving up the regions that I see is lack of price inflicted on russia itself. The problem with "inflicting" that price is that Ukraine has to continue sacrificing its people and spilling blood, which is not something I am or anyone else should be comfortable asking of Ukraine. That's why I'm genuinely interested in knowing how and what Ukrainians think. I remember recent article on public oppinion in Ukraine about whether ATO should continue - it was against it. Not sure how/if it changed now, that its clear that this is not ATO, but anti-russia-war.

[Leshma]

I would agree, and I think most population would agree as well, but there would be many who won't agree with such decision, they would likely start protesting against it and Russia would support them behind the scenes to destabilize situation.
So I'm not sure it would work.

So, they are already trying to solve it like in Yugoslavia. Split the country... listen, when Yugoslavia split only countries that did well are those who were richest part of Yugoslavia. Namely, Slovenia and Croatia. In case of Ukraine that won't work well because it seems that western Ukraine has been super poor for decades. You can believe in fairy tales that Europe (Poland and Germany) will inject money to make your country stronger but most likely they'll use western Ukraine as a slave. At best, you can look at status Baltic countries have atm, but in 20 years from now.

As I said at the start of this, Ukraine is fucked either way. Hopefully you guys make it for the better but I don't see how. At least its not your own fault all of this happened, it happened because of geopolitical position of your country.

[Beauchamp]

At least its not your own fault all of this happened, it happened because of geopolitical position of your country.

easy to say for me, but keep repeating that to yourselves and you'll be fucked up for next 10 generations.

[Leshma]

It's the fact. Only way to change it is to invent barrier from Gothic games and surround your own country with it. Or become exceptionally good at negotiations, but we're talking about mainly Slavic people here...

[Anuran]

"No one has the intention to build a wall." -Walter Ulbricht, 1961

Ukraine has.

[Molly]

I'll be honest - I am following the whole conflict with interest since the beginning, probably cuz it's gonna be in the history books in 10 years. Actually though, as long as my life is not touched by consequences out of the conflict, I do not really care. And I'd bet we all think they same, except for those few Ukranians amongst us. Well, let's say at least 80% of us think the same way if they're honest to themselves and I guess that's just normal human nature. I don't feel ashamed to admit it. I just consider myself lucky to be born where I was...

Nonetheless, I obviously hope that somehow the Ukraine manages to get out of this with the head up. How? There are too many possible scenarios, it's not even worth discussing them all.

[Thomek]

You can believe in fairy tales that Europe (Poland and Germany) will inject money to make your country stronger but most likely they'll use western Ukraine as a slave.

This is such a ridiculous lie that pro-russians serve.

IDK what will happen if RF domination would continue, but it is a fact that the baltics, poland, and all the eastern block countries that have turned westwards do much much better than those who stayed under RF domination like Belarus and Ukraine.

This is a fact. And if you go there, you will quickly understand why it is like this. Wasteful, absurd, criminal and corrupt as fuck societies. 10-fold worse than say Poland, and 100-fold worse than the average western country. (In my impression)

One of the reasons Maidan started was that they see over the border that Poland is doing much much better than Ukraine.. They are fed up with "Russian way". And I don't blame them.

In the east, the RF propaganda TV and has made them believe that "Russian way" is better than "Kiev way" while in fact they are the same in its absolute corrupt incompetence.