Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Tovi]

Military analysis, for russian speakers : https://www.youtube.com/user/Vesna2014

[Kuujis]

Military analysis, for russian speakers : https://www.youtube.com/user/Vesna2014

I find it quite funny. Starting with the "people who were living on revenues from contraband now started insurgency in the south, near sea." RIIIiiiiiight...

Then stopped somewhere where "junta" and "naztees indoctrinated figthers" BS started... Pointless waste of time to listen to "analyses" like this.

[Tovi]

Obviously; Kiev's generals think like you 
The "Cauldron tactic" is interesting.

[Butan]

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26248275

23-26 February: Parliament names speaker Olexander Turchynov as interim president. An arrest warrant is issued for Mr Yanukovych, and the acting president warns of the dangers of separatism. Members of the proposed new government appear before demonstrators, with Arseniy Yatsenyuk nominated prime minister. The elite Berkut police unit, blamed for deaths of protesters, is disbanded.

27-28 February: Pro-Russian gunmen seize key buildings in the Crimean capital, Simferopol. Unidentified gunmen in combat uniforms appear outside Crimea's main airports. At his first news conference since fleeing to Russia, Mr Yanukovych insists he remains president.

1 March: Russia's parliament approves Vladimir Putin's request to use force in Ukraine to protect Russian interests. Pro-Russian rallies are held in several Ukrainian cities outside Crimea, including the second-biggest city Kharkiv. Barack Obama tells Mr Putin to pull forces back to bases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine

On 1 March 2014, the council of Luhansk Oblast, Ukraine's easternmost region, voted to demand giving the Russian language the status of second official language, stop "persecution of Berkut fighters", disarm Maidan self-defense units and ban a number of political organizations like Svoboda and UNA-UNSO. They threatened the Ukrainian central authorities that it reserved the right "to ask for help from the brotherly people of the Russian Federation".[1] Pro-Russian citizens held a rally of up to 5,000 against the new government and demanding a referendum on whether to join Russia.[2][3][4][5]

4 March
Pro-Russian separatists consolidated their control of the local Regional Administration in Donetsk.[33] Pavel Gubarev was elected governor, and told reporters that work on the structure of the new administration is being done.[33] "We don't want to give our money any more to Kiev. We want more freedom for our city in a new federation or confederation that allows us to embrace the friendly ties and positive feelings towards us of the people of Russia," Gubarev said.

13 March: Ukraine's parliament votes to create a 60,000-strong National Guard to defend the country.

6 April
1,000–2,000 pro-Russia protesters attended a rally in Donetsk pushing for a Crimea-style referendum on independence from Ukraine.[151] After which 200 separatists took control of the first two floors of the building. The pro-Russian protesters broke down doors and smashed windows. The administration headquarters were empty, with only guards inside, as Government officials don't work on Sundays.[151] The separatists demanded that if an extraordinary session was not held by officials announcing a referendum to join Russia, they would declare unilateral control by forming a 'People's Mandate' at noon on 7 April, and "dismiss" all elected council members and MPs.[152][153][154] Residents of Donetsk submitted an open letter calling for the acting president of Ukraine to protect them from the pro-Russian separatists.[155]

So, yea...Peaceful, to forcefully trying to change the area to Russia, day 1.

There wasn't any "negotiation" just a "We hate you, we stronk Russian."

I dont see your point? You repeat what I posted.
Except actions in Crimea, not a trace of russian back up right till mid-april. Until then it was classic unarmed civilian occupying administrative buildings and protesting in the streets, which continued even after the insurgency armed itself.

Its incredible how you can end up with a totally different conclusion from the same exact link I posted and explained  why do you extrapolate that Russia has something to do with :

1march: Luhansk Oblast is against Maidan, ask for resolutions, rally of 5000 people
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL08Ad5PZmc

4march: same happens in Donetsk
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp3HM5sjrvg

6 april: protests in Donetsk where they take control of administrative buildings
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsRtbFqpNUs

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Tell me where you see Russia here? 
If you answer "we see russian flags, people chant "Russia", those are pro-russian protesters", then you're a lost cause.
Protests across Ukraine during Maidan happened, it was not only in Kiev.

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During those protests, what happened mostly?
Unarmed people protested in the streets, occupied buildings, chanting slogan of Europe and waving european union flag.
Does it mean there was Europe involved?



I feel we are going in circle, slowly closer to the actual point.
Maybe in 10 years everyone will be convinced.

[Lt_Anders]

Did you read the timeline I posted?

Within 1 day of the russian invasion of Crimea, eastern UKR starts to revolt. Within 3 days, they are storming and seizing weapons and setting up their own governments outside of UKR control. That's not protest, that's civil disturbance and civil revolt.

Course, local Police try to retake government building, but 1 month after protests start, with more than enough overtures from Kiev, they begin legitimate, armed rebellion. Also, before all this, the "little green men" that were in Crimea start appearing in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Here's something better, far more Pro-Rus riots went on than the singular maidan one, in far more Oblasts(?) yet, the moment far east started going violent, they stopped rioting and started fighting against "Russia."

[Anuran]

Then stopped somewhere where "junta" and "naztees indoctrinated figthers" BS started...

Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...
Do you doubt that fascists are part of the government of the Ukraine? Ever heard of “Svoboda”? Here you can see its Führer

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Some members of the Svoboda party are now sitting in the Ukrainian government.
Yatsenyuk also called his enemies “subhumans” (in german: “Untermenschen” this word was used by the naz-is)

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Do you doubt that right-wing militia groups are fighting against the separatists, but together with the ukr. army? Even the german mass medium ARD interviewed them and is not even ashamed of doing it. A speaker of the "Right Sector" offered help to the ukrainian president. And now, the "Right Sector" (or even more right-wing militia organisations) are fighting on the side of the ukr. army, supported by the government of the Ukraine.

[Kafein]

Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...
Do you doubt that fascists are part of the government of the Ukraine? Ever heard of “Svoboda”? Here you can see its Führer

(click to show/hide)

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Some members of the Svoboda party are now sitting in the Ukrainian government.
Yatsenyuk also called his enemies “subhumans” (in german: “Untermenschen” this word was used by the naz-is)

(click to show/hide)

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Do you doubt that right-wing militia groups are fighting against the separatists, but together with the ukr. army? Even the german mass medium ARD interviewed them and is not even ashamed of doing it. A speaker of the "Right Sector" offered help to the ukrainian president. And now, the "Right Sector" (or even more right-wing militia organisations) are fighting on the side of the ukr. army, supported by the government of the Ukraine.

Yatsenyuk, the first neo-nazi leader on earth who gets called "thieving jew" by actual neo-nazis.

The reality is that Svoboda, which is the only far right party in the majority, holds 35 seats in the Rada. Those seats aren't even necessary for the majority. In the presidential elections Svoboda and Right Sector candidates together represented less than 2% of the votes (compared to the results of e.g. French or Dutch far right candidates, this is amazing). A look at this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Ministers_of_Ukraine quickly tells me that Svoboda now has one vice prime minister, the ministry of agrarian policy and food and the ministry of ecology and natural resources of Ukraine. Wow such neonazi government. I bet the food ministry is secretly putting 6 million jewish potatoes in ovens to make jewish crisps.

[Kuujis]

Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...
Do you doubt that fascists are part of the government of the Ukraine? Ever heard of “Svoboda”? Here you can see its Führer

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Some members of the Svoboda party are now sitting in the Ukrainian government.
Yatsenyuk also called his enemies “subhumans” (in german: “Untermenschen” this word was used by the naz-is)

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Do you doubt that right-wing militia groups are fighting against the separatists, but together with the ukr. army? Even the german mass medium ARD interviewed them and is not even ashamed of doing it. A speaker of the "Right Sector" offered help to the ukrainian president. And now, the "Right Sector" (or even more right-wing militia organisations) are fighting on the side of the ukr. army, supported by the government of the Ukraine.

You are using a cheap rhetoric. Just because civilians are dying (and only an idiot would deny this) - does not mean UKR government is naztees, but you somehow imply that, or am I mistaken? HOWEVER - for a comparison on how many civilians are dead due to military actions see recent history of russian wars in chechnya. I claim, that you should be able to deduct from the numbers (approx 3 mil living in chechnya, 40 000-100 000 dead during the conflict, not counting troops, VS ~8 mil living in Donetsk + Lugansk areas, vs ~2-3k dead) that the way war is being waged is quite milder, than what one would expect from hysterical putlers media crying about bombed cities. So STFU.

I doubt that there are fascists in Ukraine's government. Guys with strong right-views? Maybe. Nationalists? Definitely yes. Naztees? No. An incidental picture is a laughable proof. Oh, and for the record - naztees used RIGHT hand, not left - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/chocolate chip cookie_salute. You got to do better than that. Also - given how those naztees Ukrainians gave around 5% to the wannabe naztee leader during president ellections - I would argue that your claim is a lie, which putler wants you to believe.
"Some members of svoboda"... please name them and shame them. I would be more than happy to look up their naztee histories! Otherwise I call you a liar, just like murmi is.
Yatsenuk waving a hand is nazteee.... yeah... well... INCIDENTALLY - Putin does something similar sometimes! SHOCKING NEWS! Also - its a well known gesture of waving ones hand to a crowd... Do you want some lemmons to suck?

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I think that nationalist groups, who DO include extrem right-wing guys, are fighting for Ukraine agains insurgents supported by russia in a direct attempt to destabilize neighboring country. Does it proove that all Ukraine army and volunteers are naztees? No, it does not. You want me to believe otherwise? You will have to do better than "some 2 girs eat shit from a cup. thus all girls who have a cup are shit eaters" analogies.

Oh, and Tovi, Anuran - in case you think, that the weekend parade of captives is pig-like behavior, which describes separatists well - fret no more! Nothing humiliating happened there:
https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/503825302410506241

[Christo]

Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...

Blah blah blah stop the god damn pro russian shilling, it's getting annoying.

I like how people like you say ukraine is run by evil nazeees and svoboda rules and say that the military bombards civilians for fun like animals?Bullshit. Guess what, who is hiding behind civilian targets? Oh.
How come you always forget about the part of insurgents hiding their asses in civilian areas so they can brag about genocide?
Doesn't fit your parroting bullshit much to see it from that side, eh?

If you are so fucking concerned about the death of civilians (which you are not, you just use it for your shit agenda to brag about), then you guys should ask russia and the separatists to meet the 'fascists' out in the open, in a fair fight.

..But then they would be destroyed within a day? Oh.

Yatsenyuk, the first neo-nazi leader on earth who gets called "thieving jew" by actual neo-nazis.

The reality is that Svoboda, which is the only far right party in the majority, holds 35 seats in the Rada. Those seats aren't even necessary for the majority. In the presidential elections Svoboda and Right Sector candidates together represented less than 2% of the votes (compared to the results of e.g. French or Dutch far right candidates, this is amazing). A look at this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Ministers_of_Ukraine quickly tells me that Svoboda now has one vice prime minister, the ministry of agrarian policy and food and the ministry of ecology and natural resources of Ukraine. Wow such neonazi government. I bet the food ministry is secretly putting 6 million jewish potatoes in ovens to make jewish crisps.

Thanks, really good explanation, couldn't be arsed to put numbers up.

Also won't be able to look at potato chips the same way ever again

Poor Latvia

[DonNicko]

Christo I thought you like Dramas. BTW separatists already fight in the open field, they have high spirit. Last days they captured more then 500 armed vehicles. And as I know ussualy not ukranian army bombs civilians(they do it too) but most of the time it has been doing by national guard, which mostly consists of "right sector" and other volunteers which are sponsored by oligarches like Kolomoyskiy. It is my opinion.

[Christo]

I do, I do.

But this starts to get a 'little bit' boring to read again and again and again and again, 395 pages in.

500 armed vehicles? That sounds like some serious overexaggeration.

[Kuujis]

<...>
500 armed vehicles? That sounds like some serious overexaggeration.

No, that sounds like RT reporting. RELIABLE AND ON TIME! 

[Tibe]

Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...
Do you doubt that fascists are part of the government of the Ukraine? Ever heard of “Svoboda”? Here you can see its Führer

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Some members of the Svoboda party are now sitting in the Ukrainian government.
Yatsenyuk also called his enemies “subhumans” (in german: “Untermenschen” this word was used by the naz-is)

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Do you doubt that right-wing militia groups are fighting against the separatists, but together with the ukr. army? Even the german mass medium ARD interviewed them and is not even ashamed of doing it. A speaker of the "Right Sector" offered help to the ukrainian president. And now, the "Right Sector" (or even more right-wing militia organisations) are fighting on the side of the ukr. army, supported by the government of the Ukraine.

Ye the actual fasc ists in the government are barely even there. I think we have been through this atleast 10 times in this thread now, but I quess pro-rus propaganda is just so convincing one starts lacking logic of how governments work entirely. You got 1 person in your government that admitted being fas cist? BAM! You all na zis now, burn in hell!

And nobody is doubting that civilians are getting bombed at in Eastern-Ukraine. We all seen the pictures. But again its completely idiotic to think its all work of Kiev. Locals have pretty much stated that their homes got bombed to shite from separatist positions and later by pro-government forces aswell. So they are caught in the middle of both forces bombing eachother. Which is basically a logical assumption, AGAIN something I said was happening many pages ago in this thread and now I got vids to back that claim. WTF people? Seriuslly? Its kinda wierd anyone even questioned me on this one. If someone shoots 1000s of bombs at the enemy and a town is in the middle of the bombs route its kinda impossible not to hit the town. The separatists dont have auto-aim to avoid civiliancasualties. Its just common sense.

[Anuran]

Blah blah blah stop the god damn pro russian shilling, it's getting annoying.
 

So I am pro-russian just because I want this war to end? Interesting point of view. I am very sure that many people in Europe and America also want it to end, if they know about the dangers. Calling me pro-russian just because of that, is just a knockout argument… I'm also not alleging you that you want the civilians to be killed just to not be “pro-russian”. Cause this is just senseless.

Conclusion on how this logic looks like to me: stop killing civilians, against war  = pro-russian, not pro-russian = at least don’t care about dead civilians, don’t care about war…

I like how people like you say […]

“People like me”? What kind of people are “like me”? And what kind of people are the ones who seem to avow for a different view?

I like how people like you say ukraine is run by evil nazeees and svoboda rules

I said, they are part of the government. If they were really elected – and I don’t want to completely negate that – then I accept the people’s decision.

the military bombards civilians for fun like animals

I never said they bombard civilians “for fun”

Guess what, who is hiding behind civilian targets? Oh.
How come you always forget about the part of insurgents hiding their asses in civilian areas so they can brag about genocide?
 

I know that the separatists are in these towns. I’m not that stupid. But why bomb the whole cities?
Christo, as I have seen in your profile, you live in Hungary. Now imagine the following: There are quite many insurgents in your town who feel like Austrians or Romanians or Slovakians or whatever (don’t know exactly where in Hungary you live but nvm). So they start protests. And not only in your town, but in many towns nearby. Of course your government won’t support their claims and starts bombing your town and the others just because the insurgents are hiding there. You lose your living place or even more… And the big majority in the other European and American countries ignores your suffering or even supports the bombings, just because they don’t want to be called “pro-austrian” or “pro-slovakian” or whatever. Think about it please…

So let me take your sentence now:

Doesn't fit your parroting bullshit much to see it from that side, eh?
 

Conclusion: You and some others display me as completely dumb and media-blinded, I noticed that already. But is saying “Putler” much better then? You are ascribing things to me I never said, did you notice that? You haven’t read properly what I actually wrote. In my eyes you want to represent the entire opposite, but I can’t imagine that.
Don’t think too unilateral in an Either-Or-Way. Also take a look on the other sides.

[Christo]

You are ascribing things to me I never said, did you notice that?

You are ascribing things to me I never said, did you notice that?