Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Sniger]

SEMI-OFF-TOPIC

didnt knew where to post this, but its kinda funny and also impressive

not to twist topic in other direction please keep on-topic and just read and smile at this

http://disinfo.com/2014/08/russia-wants-bulgarians-stop-vandalizing-soviet-monuments-look-like-american-superheroes/

[Mwahahaha]

Victoria Nuland on Maidan. Why?

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USA invested 5 billion dollars to Ukraine democracy

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John Maccein on Maidan.

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USA invested 5 billions since 1991 as she said, not exactly in Maidan, also that speech was made when Yanukovich was president. Nuland, Maccein on maidan? They show their support, and a lot wanted to see it. If some old ppl have some dreams about USSR etc, then majority of young ppl who were born in ndependent UA want to see Ukraine as integrated into EU world and this became as the main reason why Maidan started.

[Mwahahaha]

SEMI-OFF-TOPIC

didnt knew where to post this, but its kinda funny and also impressive

not to twist topic in other direction please keep on-topic and just read and smile at this

http://disinfo.com/2014/08/russia-wants-bulgarians-stop-vandalizing-soviet-monuments-look-like-american-superheroes/

If this doesn't stop soon, Russia may have to invade to protect Bulgaria's ethnically Russian monument population

[DonNicko]

USA invested 5 billions since 1991 as she said, not exactly in Maidan, also that speech was made when Yanukovich was president. Nuland, Maccein on maidan? They show their support, and a lot wanted to see it. If some old ppl have some dreams about USSR etc, then majority of young ppl who were born in ndependent UA want to see Ukraine as integrated into EU world and this became as the main reason why Maidan started.

I didn't said that they invested in Maidan, I said they invested in Ukraine democracy. Yeah ofcourse support Hunter Biden is appointed to a post of the director in Burisma Holdings Limited board of directors

[Butan]

Right to determine their own future? By that you mean right to determine russian law in Ukrainain soil. You are kinda like Butan here, who assumes if in some countries province a minority overpopulates the native population they should have the right to break appart from that country. By that logic in a few years Germany should have to give some of its lands where there are more turks than germans to Turkey, cause the turkish people have "a right to determine their own future". Way to support annexation via overpopulating.

By that logic, every civilian-based strife have no legitimacy to influence a country's shape and future. And I appreciate your far-right counter-argument 

I must have said that around 10 times now, but the unrest in the east of Ukraine started without Russia. Their involvement and support came afterward.

Without them the rebellion would have probably been crushed; with them it still exist. But the cause of the fight would have been the same in the two cases.
You can criticise Russia, but you can hardly criticise the rebelling Ukrainians.
The reason of the actual unrests stems from the Maidan revolt, a revolt which (as just as it was in its conclusion) broke the fragile political balance between Ukrainian and Russian-Ukrainian, and created the basis for a counter-revolt.

Why would a certain part of the citizens of Ukraine that wanted closer ties with Europe be granted their wish, and another part of the citizenry be denied *closer ties with Russia*, using the same methods?
Only the force of arms decides once you unleash the armed police and the army.

If they really feel like they would have a better life under Russias wing than move to Russia, dont fucking try to turn it into Russia.

Who are you to say this? If the people inside Ukraine wants to turn it into another Russia, or only parts of it, its up to them to fight for it.

Also, not every people want to fight the Ukraine, there already has been hundreds thousands of more peaceful minded people who flew from Ukraine to Russia without you telling them what to do.
Those that remains either fight, wants to continue their life where it is, or are waiting to flee the war.

[Tibe]

Who are you to say this? If the people inside Ukraine wants to turn it into another Russia, or only parts of it, its up to them to fight for it.

Well than, in that case somekind of minority have it up to them to fight for it inside your country one day. Bombs flying at your front porch and shit for some minorities own fight. Nice to see that you are cool with it and completely understanding.

By that logic, every civilian-based strife have no legitimacy to influence a country's shape and future. And I appreciate your far-right counter-argument 

I must have said that around 10 times now, but the unrest in the east of Ukraine started without Russia. Their involvement and support came afterward.

Without them the rebellion would have probably been crushed; with them it still exist. But the cause of the fight would have been the same in the two cases.
You can criticise Russia, but you can hardly criticise the rebelling Ukrainians.
The reason of the actual unrests stems from the Maidan revolt, a revolt which (as just as it was in its conclusion) broke the fragile political balance between Ukrainian and Russian-Ukrainian, and created the basis for a counter-revolt.

How wouldnt the eastern-Ukrainians have legitimacy to influence Ukraines shape and future if they hadnt rebeled? Nobody was gonna take their votingrights. They would have had legitimacy like any other regular citizen. And no it didnt start without Russia. Considering that the Eastern-Ukrainians are shouting the same bullshit against Kiev, that russian media has been throwing around at its own enemies for over 10 years, it almost feels as if they had zero cause for it themselves, but are utterly doing Russias exact bidding.

[Molly]

Murmi, it's pretty simple:
When you stop posting nonsense ramblings, I'll stop asking you to stop posting nonsense ramblings, deal?

You're just pulling shit out of your arse w/o anything to back it and even if you try to back it, you're doing it with known bullshit-sources. Not mention showing off half-knowledge sold as facts.

You're the one polluting this thread with far fetched crap which mostly even goes wildly off-topic. Hell, even Tovi back in here posting would be an improvement compared to you.
Maybe you should try lemons? I heard vitamins are good for health - maybe even with mental health issues... -.-

[Butan]

How wouldnt the eastern-Ukrainians have legitimacy to influence Ukraines shape and future if they hadnt rebeled? Nobody was gonna take their votingrights. They would have had legitimacy like any other regular citizen.

You seem to think that if there had been a legal vote for Maidan in the first place, the Ukraine would have been unanimous about where the country had to go after Yanukovitch bouts.
After Maidan was over and the government kicked out and replaced with 100% "new cool generation" pro-EU politicians, with various extraordinary changes to the laws of the country and the signing of various long-debated over trade deals... you really think those who didnt agree with all this would all duly wait for the next election?
The snap election which saw Poroshenko become president didnt even take place in the regions of Ukraine where there was most of the opposition, due to the already ongoing rebellion.


Most changes which requires dramatic changes like constitution changes, shuffling the entire government, evicting from office, requires a referendum or 2/3 of the votes from parliament/senate or a re-election, in most democratic country. Thats regular voting rights and citizenship. The use of such rules is to guarantee the stability of a country and to ensure that most of the countrymen are happy with the states of affairs through direct control or representatives.

Obviously, its not what happened here in the two situations. Both movements were/are using irregular and unlawful methods, why would one be more legitimate than the other?

And no it didnt start without Russia.

And Russia directly shot the MH117 and is invading Ukraine for 6 months in a row.

Eastern Ukraine unrest chronology :

- 23 february : Euromaidan is over and a success
- 23 february : various unrests starts in most of the eastern half of Ukraine
- 26 february : Crimea unrest is backed by garrisoned Russian troops

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

______________________
- 26 february - 17 march : Crimea is progressively annexed
______________________
- 26 february - 12 april : all other regions have 0 eminent Russian involvement and support (other than the all-purpose accusation of organising protests and spreading the dissatisfaction)
- 13 april : the first ever non-Crimean para-military administrative building occupation action (russian masked green men)

More detailed timeline for the bravest here.



From 23 february to the 13 april, Russia was only involved in Crimea.
And if those green men were not russian soldiers, the next date would be when Luhanks and Donetsk Oblast became military backed by Russia, and go put a date on that 
I'm not even talking of before the end of Maidan, anti-Maidan protests of small importance had already started to emerge.



You are able to draw a line between Ukrainian protesters/insurgents and Russia's interests, why dont you do it? You will understand every points of view without falling into anyone traps.

Murm & others

You remind me of the good old time in this thread 




P.S.: EDIT OVER, PFEW.

[Tibe]

You seem to think that if there had been a legal vote for Maidan in the first place, the Ukraine would have been unanimous about where the country had to go after Yanukovitch bouts.
After Maidan was over and the government kicked out and replaced with 100% pro-EU politicians, with various extraordinary changes to the laws of the country and the signing of various long-debated over trade deals... you really think those who didnt agree with all this would all duly wait for the next election?
The snap election which saw Poroshenko become president didnt even take place in the regions of Ukraine where there was most of the opposition, due to the already ongoing rebellion.

Because Maidans events were basically a government unshakling itself free from an empire. Pretty sure if Ukr would have told both EU and Russia to go fuck themselves, EU wouldnt have done jackshit about it, while Russia I assume would have acted the same as it does now, if not even worse. A lot of countries are anti-EU and they can still have relations with them. The only time the West sanctions someones ass is if their way of governing has too many human casualties or limits the freedoms of their citizens too much. Eastern-Ukr main goal is to become an extension of Russia. Thats 2 completely different things.

And I dont see how being replaced by 100% pro-EU politicians with significant changes to the laws and deals was such a bad thing. They didnt consist things like speaking french and being forced to drink finnish vodka. Russians could still russia in Ukr. So I dont really get your mindset here. Case in point no country that switched sides from Russia to EU ever got poorer and their russian minorities all lived all the same. So basically theres no historical background either, to prove that switching to EU makes lives for the russian minorities harded.

[BIA_ivani4]

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/donezk/separatisten-fuehren-gefangene-soldaten-vor-37377610.bild.html

[Kafein]

you really think those who didnt agree with all this would all duly wait for the next election?

It's amusing that you would say that given that the "rebellion" started only a few weeks (or not even that) before the elections took place. Those eastern Ukrainians (lol) sure aren't patient.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Murmi, it's pretty simple:
When you stop posting nonsense ramblings, I'll stop asking you to stop posting nonsense ramblings, deal?

You're just pulling shit out of your arse w/o anything to back it and even if you try to back it, you're doing it with known bullshit-sources. Not mention showing off half-knowledge sold as facts.

You're the one polluting this thread with far fetched crap which mostly even goes wildly off-topic. Hell, even Tovi back in here posting would be an improvement compared to you.
Maybe you should try lemons? I heard vitamins are good for health - maybe even with mental health issues... -.-

I've backed my words and claims far more so than those of you holding different views on the situation, and especially more so than you Molly. You've really contributed fuck all to this thread in the past 10 or so pages, I haven't been in the thread long so I don't really know how far back your useless sleazy, smarmy off topic comments have been polluting the thread.

If you think my arguments are flawed or I'm pulling them out of my arse then call me out on them, make a point to "correct" my way of thinking and the information that I've provided rather than toss shit like an ape while being as smarmy a cunt as you can be, all while actually providing very little in terms of substance in this thread.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Right to determine their own future? By that you mean right to determine russian law in Ukrainain soil. You are kinda like Butan here, who assumes if in some countries province a minority overpopulates the native population they should have the right to break appart from that country. By that logic in a few years Germany should have to give some of its lands where there are more turks than germans to Turkey, cause the turkish people have "a right to determine their own future". Way to support annexation via overpopulating.

If they really feel like they would have a better life under Russias wing than move to Russia, dont fucking try to turn it into Russia.

Hey if the majority of the region wanted more autonomy and the Ukrainian government refused this and ignored their wishes, the very government they had little to no part in installing, and electing then I support their decision to carve out the land on which many have lived for generations, (even before the Ukrainian state existed) in an attempt to determine self rule. Don't get me wrong I don't view this shit with rose tinted glasses as some other commenters sympathetic to the Rebels cause and Russia's national interest in the region, I understand that Russia is interfering in Ukraine, but no more or less so than the West, what's good for NATO must be what's good for the world right? After all I don't remember any of you anti-Russian posters condemning the repeated NATO and NATO state interference and aggression in nations scattered around the globe.

NATO member state aggression which toppled Gaddafi ONLY THREE YEARS AGO. Which lead to chaos, endless bloodshed and then..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/24/libya-capital-under-islamist-control-tripoli-airport-seized-operation-dawn

^^^

Backing shit up right?

[Tibe]

Sooo your point is if NATO is bad, Russia can be bad too? Once again, majority of Western citizens dont support anything that nato has done, we dont really discuss this cause...well we know so little about it. We arent brainwashed and we arent just haters of all war. We can see well enough that nato is screwing shit up more than saving it. Frankly we just dont know enough about Syria or Lybia to form an opinion if it was good or bad. So honestly all we got is someones word for it. We do know shitloads about Russia however and there are people who know about Ukraine aswell. So once again the statement you made a few pages back that we are all brainwashed by bad natopropaganda is just untrue. Majority of people are not rooting for the wars NATO commits itself to. We arent like majority of russians on the internet or everywhere else for that matter: "wohooo to war with everything that Kremlin doesnt like, that way we can be more relevant". Now that my friend, is proof of an effective propaganda hatecampaign.

I am happy as hell that NATO didnt go through with its plan of invading Syria and basically handicapping its military. That would have fucked up the country so badly that every warlord and terroristic organisation would have called dibs on the land. As it is happening right now, but atleast the government can put up a resistance now. If nato would have gone through with their shit, it would have been forced to leave a lot of troops and equipment there to hold back the religious nutjubgroups for a quite long time, or just leave the country at its own demise.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Sooo your point is if NATO is bad, Russia can be bad too? Once again, majority of Western citizens dont support anything that nato has done, we dont really discuss this cause...well we know so little about it. We arent brainwashed and we arent just haters of all war. We can see well enough that nato is screwing shit up more than saving it. Frankly we just dont know enough about Syria or Lybia to form an opinion if it was good or bad. So honestly all we got is someones word for it. We do know shitloads about Russia however and there are people who know about Ukraine aswell. So once again the statement you made a few pages back that we are all brainwashed by bad natopropaganda is just untrue. Majority of people are not rooting for the wars NATO commits itself to. We arent like majority of russians on the internet or everywhere else for that matter: "wohooo to war with everything that Kremlin doesnt like, that way we can be more relevant". Now that my friend, is proof of an effective propaganda hatecampaign.

I am happy as hell that NATO didnt go through with its plan of invading Syria and basically handicapping its military. That would have fucked up the country so badly that every warlord and terroristic organisation would have called dibs on the land. As it is happening right now, but atleast the government can put up a resistance now. If nato would have gone through with their shit, it would have been forced to leave a lot of troops and equipment there to hold back the religious nutjubgroups for a quite long time, or just leave the country at its own demise.

No that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that Russia hasn't even behaved half as bad as NATO and yet the media and some sections of society perpetuate anti Russian hype as though Russia has been as every bit as aggressive and violent as NATO has been this century, when it reality it has not, and the very same media and largely the same sections of society largely ignored and even supported NATO's aggression which was pushed through with anti-targeted state propaganda being broadcast on Western media 24/7.

The Libyan conflict and overthrow of Gaddafi was the first conflict I followed from start to, well where the conflict, situation has led to now. I did this through media sources both mainstream media sources and alternative media sources, western and eastern mainstream media. I did some googling on the history of certain conflicts, political conflicts in the 20th/21st century, seen numerous videos of so called experts in their field offering their opinions on the political state of the world... There's so much you can find on the internet and a lot of it may be propaganda, some of it may be fake, some of it may be politicised what ever, just do what you can to find this information and decide for yourself what makes sense, what's more likely to be the truth, what's more credible. Because I sure as hell don't want to put all my eggs in one basket, that would be unwise.

Personally there's a lot about everything I know fuck all about, you may know more about Russia than me, but  to state that "we do know shitloads about Russia", based on what? Who is the "we" and where did you get this shitloads of information from huh? What was the source, what was the sources interest in the subject, did it come across as bias in any way? Did you even analyse it at all before accepting that information as given?

For example, if Western mainstream media was my only source of information I would be under the impression that the Rebels were pretty much finished in East Ukraine.. Luckily I view information from multiple sources, even sources that I openly criticise for spreading Western propaganda, I don't completely write them off, I use their information and miss-information to help me form what I believe to the truths in geopolitical situations and crisis.

Someone posted this video to liveleak today, I don't seem to get the impression the rebels are even close to being crushed by the Ukrainian government.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a87_1408887989

And this.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=616_1408888475

^^^ Of course you can write the videos off as propaganda, only recorded by people on the ground in the actual region recording real people, real destroyed tanks, unlike that ghost convoy the Ukrainian government claimed to have destroyed.

But you know me, I'm only trying to back my shit up, since I've been accused by two idiots of not being able to do so.