Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Dark_Blade]

Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.

well i mean just level of education things. btw since 80 or maybe even more previous education from schools became much worse. not my words but words of people who knew that times.
about science... well i dont give a fuck. that is research... kind of it at least. however that was so, you can agree with this way of things, you can disagree. however it: 1) was so 2)is in the past.

the majority of the things i have to know has been made by the western world... and whats then? do i have to talk shit about USSR at any point because of it or what?

(click to show/hide)

if i  am in total disagreement with western point of view on the things in ukraine that doesnt means i am agree with the russian point. that also doesnt means i have to hate everything western and fap fap on everything eastern lol. however just someones opinion is nothing until it goes to the action. the world wont be changed from opinions but from the actions... and even sending a message on the forum is an action. thats how it works. 

[Butan]

Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.

You do realise that Dark Blade is speaking of university today?

Its not because some universities were built in the soviet era that they dispense the same education now.
But to stay on your off-topic, even though soviets banned school of thoughts, in the rest of the spectrum of science, they were as free as any other scientists in other countries and produced results... not invariably failed to do so, and not only in engineering  
The "principles" of soviet ideology applied to science was mainly restricting or censoring ideas that went against their political system, those that didnt were not subject to more control than your basic government control (which you seem to "invariably" label under "nazi control").

Even nazis had science, and they were not "scientists", they were scientists.

Stop the propaganda please.

[Dark_Blade]

You do realise that Dark Blade is speaking of university today?

Its not because some universities were built in the soviet era that they dispense the same education now.
But to stay on your off-topic, even though soviets banned school of thoughts, in the rest of the spectrum of science, they were as free as any other scientists in other countries and produced results... not invariably failed to do so, and not only in engineering  
The "principles" of soviet ideology applied to science was mainly restricting or censoring ideas that went against their political system, those that didnt were not subject to more control than your basic government control (which you seem to "invariably" label under "nazi control").

Even nazis had science, and they were not "scientists", they were scientists.

Stop the propaganda please.

actually i said about both. just in someones mind soviet education = current post USSR education what is really different by quality.
i am not sure why he did started to speak about since.

[Molly]

Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.

Wait - engineering is not research?

[[ptx]]

Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.

That's not exactly true, not for the exact sciences, anyway.

[Anuran]

The ukrainian army seems to have attacked the russian convoy. That's what I just read. Not sure if true.

[Xant]

The ukrainian army seems to have attacked the russian convoy. That's what I just read. Not sure if true.

Sounds legit. The army attacks a bunch of trucks with nothing but humanitarian aid supplies. Or maybe, if this is true, it's what Ukraine and the EU and the US were saying the instant Russia announced their convoy: this is going to be their excuse for war.

Edit: Yeah, apparently Ukraine has destroyed the APCs that the reporter from the Guardian saw. Not the actual trucks. And they're still fighting.

[Molly]

Oh boy, that might not end well.
On the other hand, what were those APCs to do anyway?

[Vovka]

The ukrainian army seems to have attacked the russian convoy. That's what I just read. Not sure if true.

convoy is still on RF territory ))

[Nessaj]

Ukrainian artillery destroyed a "significant" part of a Russian armoured column that crossed into Ukraine during the night, President Petro Poroshenko told British Prime Minister David Cameron, according to the presidential website.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0815/637230-ukraine-russia/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726010/Ukrainian-army-battle-Russian-armoured-column-crosses-border-claims-destroyed-Kremlin-forces.html



Dunno what the truth is though.

AMBASSADOR SUMMONED AS WEST CONDEMNS REPORTS OF RUSSIAN INCURSION
Britain this afternoon summoned the Russian ambassador for emergency talks, amid reports of a military incursion into Ukraine.
Russian ambassador Alexander Yakovenko has been asked to ‘clarify’ the reports after the Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko held talks with David Cameron today.
Mr Poroshenko told the Prime Minister that a military convoy had crossed from Russia into Ukraine overnight.
He added that a ‘majority of the machines had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night’.
According to Mr Poroshenko the Prime Minister ‘reaffirmed his strong and gradual support to Ukraine and the actions of the President’ in dealing with the Russian incursion.
Arriving in Brussels today, the Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said he was ‘very alarmed’ by the reports.
He said: ‘If there are any Russian military personnel or vehicles in eastern Ukraine, they need to be withdrawn immediately or the consequences could be very serious.'
Mr Hammond added: ‘We would urge the Russians to withdraw any military personnel that they have inside Ukraine and stop supporting the separatists as they have been doing for the last few months.
‘The situation is potentially very dangerous and that's why we are here today discussing it.’
Nato secretary general Anders Fogh Rasmussen confirmed the incursion.
He said: ‘We see a continuous flow of weapons and fighters from Russia into eastern Ukraine, and it is a clear demonstration of continued Russian involvement in [its] destabilisation.’

[okiN]

Dunno what the truth is though.

It seems obvious enough. The mysterious aid trucks are still in Russia. The action took place in Ukraine. If the casualties were Russian, then it means that for whatever reason, the Russians sent troops into Ukraine, completely ignoring all warnings and protestations from the Ukrainians, the EU and everyone involved. I don't see what there is to argue about really, Russia can cry that Ukraine is "preventing a humanitarian operation" all it likes, they have no legitimate reason for sending troops into Ukraine without permission, which was repeatedly and clearly denied.

[BIA_ivani4]

[Molly]

That sure isn't from today.

[Kafein]

You do realise that Dark Blade is speaking of university today?

Its not because some universities were built in the soviet era that they dispense the same education now.
But to stay on your off-topic, even though soviets banned school of thoughts, in the rest of the spectrum of science, they were as free as any other scientists in other countries and produced results... not invariably failed to do so, and not only in engineering  
The "principles" of soviet ideology applied to science was mainly restricting or censoring ideas that went against their political system, those that didnt were not subject to more control than your basic government control (which you seem to "invariably" label under "nazi control").

Even nazis had science, and they were not "scientists", they were scientists.

Stop the propaganda please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
search for "Nazi human experimentation", I can't post the link properly here.

Efforts of both the Nazi and Soviet scientists in fields such as biology and human sciences have been extremely if not completely defined by the ideology. The government's influence was much stricter than banning "subversive" research. The goal was to prove that the ideology worked through scientific results, and to use techniques derived from the ideology in practical applications (that's Lysenkoism in a nutshell).

Wait - engineering is not research?

No, it's really really not. And you are talking to a scientist, not an engineer. I know many engineers that would tell you engineering is research. I do believe that's another discussion entirely though.

That's not exactly true, not for the exact sciences, anyway.

Sure, but then the exact sciences were abused as a way to create war necessities (for exact sciences it was mainly about weapons). Also don't forget that the Nazi and Soviet regimes were populist and copiously indulged in book burnings, censor as well as hostility towards intellectuals.

Anyway, back to EUkraine 2014

[[ptx]]

Sure, but then the exact sciences were abused as a way to create war necessities (for exact sciences it was mainly about weapons). Also don't forget that the Nazi and Soviet regimes were populist and copiously indulged in book burnings, censor as well as hostility towards intellectuals.

That is what communist regimes in general did upon establishing themselves upon some populace, as a way of subjugating. One might say the regimes feared intellectuals not raised under their ideology as potential dissidents. This, however, did not continue after that initial purge. The exact sciences were well supported and progressive under SU. Whatever can be said of social studies in post-soviet countries, the exact sciences, imho, are not lacking.