Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Molly]

With Murmi around, there is no more need for Tovi or Butan really. He's more amusing with his factual wrong comparisons

And Nicko... really? SU irrelevant for the relation between FORMER-SU STATES. Lay off the vodka for a while, buddy. Not serving you well here.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Tibe said that it was a threat, so I asked him why. Maybe Soviet Empire were a bad friend? Current Russia is 23 years old and if it is still bad friend, then why Latin America so friendly with us China, India, maybe because we went there with tanks? I don't want to talk about Soviet Union, in that case maybe you want to remember Germany in 40's, don't you afraid of them? Or something earlier do you want to remember. That all is in the past,

That is a grave error. We germans often get sick about our own talk of guilt in WWI and II. But we still do talk about it and at least most people acknowledge the insane errors and guilt our ancestors committed (There are of course always some fucktards thinking different, but they are a clear minority). I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Other than the crime aspect it is politically totally senseless to talk about Russia without talking about SU. It is simply impossible in fact.

[[ptx]]

Ok Oberyn, there wasn't any need to join Nato, Russia were weak and didn't pretend to rule those counties, why they joined then? I don't know maybe USA gave them some cookies for that. And those countries got invited to join. Why not? Let's do it. It was easy for Nato to join offended countries, like Crimea joined Russia.

The Eastern European countries that joined NATO, did so because RF continued to intimidate them after the collapse of SU - unsigned border treaties, hostile rhetoric, low-intensity informational war, using economic means to influence, etc. Also, once you've been occupied by a neighboring state, it is merely logical to try and safeguard yourself against it happening again.

Also, how are the decisions of it's neighboring countries any business of RF?

[Tibe]

Tibe said that it was a threat, so I asked him why. Maybe Soviet Empire were a bad friend? Current Russia is 23 years old and if it is still bad friend, then why Latin America so friendly with us China, India, maybe because we went there with tanks? I don't want to talk about Soviet Union, in that case maybe you want to remember Germany in 40's, don't you afraid of them? Or something earlier do you want to remember. That all is in the past, After USSR were broken NATO said that they will not increase their influence on the East, but even when Russia were very weak they continued to do so, making some propoganda. Fear Russian beasts.

Latin America, China and India are so nice to you because you are good buisnesspartners, IF you want to be good buisnesspartners and you dont really have any bad history with them. So there can be nothing but good with them. But for ex-soviet nations and Western nations, negotiating anything with Russian politicians is very hard. I dunno why but they act like complete assholes on the negotiationtable when discussing matters with EUs. I dunno if its related to the fact that they are still bitter about Soviet Union or that they just hate and dont trust the West so much, that they just cant use nice words and even pretend to be nice. And idolizing Soviet Union is bad. Especially when half of the Russian goverment still weeps of its collapse. To many countries Soviet Union was as bad as Na zi Germany during WW2, during the Cold war the SU was considered a "prison for nations". SU basically consisted of shitton of countries and people that never wanted to be under Kremlins thumb and which the Empire clearly could not sustain. And Russia is a threat, as clearly these recent events have proven. Russia is using its minorites that live in foreign countries as tools to annex itself more lands. Putin pretty much said it himself with words like "if russian lives are in danger, we will invade you".

That means they can pretty much fabricate whatever the hell random shit up and invade. Thats why countries like the Baltics for instance joined NATO. Eversince they gained indepencence Russia has been up their assholes pretty much always nonstop. Claiming that their minorities are being discriminated while it is clearly not and claiming that they are all fascists via official reports, that also being utterly false. Official reports that they have also violated major human rights, which is also utterly fake. All these attemts to make the russian public hate them? For what gain really?

[Christo]

I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Oh I'm not sure about that. All that "GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR" bullshit, you know?

[DonNicko]

And Nicko... really? SU irrelevant for the relation between FORMER-SU STATES. Lay off the vodka for a while, buddy. Not serving you well here.

I have never drunk a vodka molly, and never smoked anything, and all my friends do the same.

That is a grave error. We germans often get sick about our own talk of guilt in WWI and II. But we still do talk about it and at least most people acknowledge the insane errors and guilt our ancestors committed (There are of course always some fucktards thinking different, but they are a clear minority). I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Other than the crime aspect it is politically totally senseless to talk about Russia without talking about SU. It is simply impossible in fact.

What about our history? My family was the richest one in Russian Empire my grand grand pa was merchant of the first guild, we supported imperator's house and russian army with horses. When SU came my family lost all of this, some of us were sent to Syberia. What should I know? That Stalin killed a lot of people, that he was coward? That there were a lot of crimes, well I know a lot of this, and we study it in the schools, and it is politically useless to talk about Russia with talking about SU. It is like talking about your country always reminding what you have done in the past.

The Eastern European countries that joined NATO, did so because RF continued to intimidate them after the collapse of SU - unsigned border treaties, hostile rhetoric, low-intensity informational war, using economic means to influence, etc. Also, once you've been occupied by a neighboring state, it is merely logical to try and safeguard yourself against it happening again.

Also, how are the decisions of it's neighboring countries any business of RF?

Maybe, never heard about this on the TV. No matter joined and joined. I just think why people refuse that Nato increase their influence to the East. It just a fact.

[Christo]

I have never drunk a vodka molly, and never smoked anything, and all my friends do the same.

[Oberyn]

Naked irredentism

The Eastern European countries that joined NATO, did so because RF continued to intimidate them after the collapse of SU - unsigned border treaties, hostile rhetoric, low-intensity informational war, using economic means to influence, etc. Also, once you've been occupied by a neighboring state, it is merely logical to try and safeguard yourself against it happening again.

Also, how are the decisions of it's neighboring countries any business of RF?

It's because despite the "SU is gone, we are totally brand new Russia with no attachment whatsoever to that past" rhetoric, the RF still seems to treat a lot of these countries like rebellious, unruly vassals that need to be brought to heel, or more charitably as still being in their sphere of influence. The blatant pro-SU nostalgia encouraged wholeheartedly by Putin and co in their propaganda is also completely irrelevant I suppose.

[Murmillus_Prime]

I wonder what reason countries like Hungary, Poland or the Czech Republic could possibly have to distance themselves from Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Truly only perfidious western propaganda and NATO aggression could've turned them away from the love and gratitude they felt for the russian people.

What really boggles my mind is that you feel your country should have any sort of say in their decisions. Because you occupied and imposed your fucktardedly incompetent systems on them for decades, supported only by force and totalitarian control of society? They're not in your "sphere". They're their own independent, sovereign countries. Get over it. The reason they joined NATO and the EU after it is clear as day. Because it benefited them, because it was an asset, because it made their people more prosperous in a hundred different ways.They weren't conquered, or coerced into it.

They traded one master for another, that is all.

[Murmillus_Prime]

wtf have you been smoking dude? At first I figured that I somewhat knew wtf you are talking about but it gets kinda wierd now. Your opinions arent emotionally formed? Than wtf are they formed on? Cause they arent based on facts and I can tell you that right off the bat. It sounds like your typical NATO world domination, Western propaganda to blame for all terror in the world, Russia totally misunderstood harmless country that was never to blame for everything kind of view you got going here. Which is the true sign of someone brainwashed. Dont get me wrong, you dont have to be brainwashed not to like the West and NATO, but your worldview is kinda fucked up wrong. Stating shit like westerners hate russians based on propaganda and that Russia is a harmless little butterfly is so fucking far from the truth and clearly shows you havent been around the block at all. I admit, my reasons are a bit emotional, but I got pretty solid background for it. Way to accuse me of being buried in the sand while you are still bluntly walking it the dark. GG

That, and your and others posters here replies which only seek to vilify Russia and even drag up the Soviet Union to dish out some dirt is all the evidence I'll need that the propaganda against Russia has worked. You call me brainwashed but I can see who the real brainwashed idiots are.

What NATO HAS done it HAS DONE. This is not a fucking fallacy, it's a fucking reality, and yet I do have emotionally formed opinions, when defending my opinions and opposing the opinions of people so fucking brainwashed they might as well have a world view with their head up their arses. I can bring up multiple instances of military and political aggression from NATO THIS CENTURY (NOT THE PAST), and you couldn't even do the same with Russia, instead you'd probably drag up that old USSR soviet union chestnut which is NO LONGER RELEVANT.

[Xant]

Maybe, never heard about this on the TV. No matter joined and joined. I just think why people refuse that Nato increase their influence to the East. It just a fact.

Nato didn't "increase their influence", but Nato's influence increased. There's a difference. Countries that had been conquered by the SU didn't want history to repeat itself, so THEY went to Nato, not the other way around.

They traded one master for another, that is all.

Comparing EU to SU/Russia... rofl

[Murmillus_Prime]

With Murmi around, there is no more need for Tovi or Butan really. He's more amusing with his factual wrong comparisons

And Nicko... really? SU irrelevant for the relation between FORMER-SU STATES. Lay off the vodka for a while, buddy. Not serving you well here.

Factually wrong? Am I FACTUALLY WRONG about NATO's actions and Russia's reasons for its REACTIONS? Brainwashed much? What is this thread full of? TV Brainwashed zombies that's what.

[MaHuD]

That is a grave error. We germans often get sick about our own talk of guilt in WWI and II. But we still do talk about it and at least most people acknowledge the insane errors and guilt our ancestors committed (There are of course always some fucktards thinking different, but they are a clear minority). I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Other than the crime aspect it is politically totally senseless to talk about Russia without talking about SU. It is simply impossible in fact.

Germany takes that a bit over the top. Forbidding everything, being scared to hell of a variety of symbols, gore, details etc.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Naked irredentism
It's because despite the "SU is gone, we are totally brand new Russia with no attachment whatsoever to that past" rhetoric, the RF still seems to treat a lot of these countries like rebellious, unruly vassals that need to be brought to heel, or more charitably as still being in their sphere of influence. The blatant pro-SU nostalgia encouraged wholeheartedly by Putin and co in their propaganda is also completely irrelevant I suppose.

The Soviet Union was one formed on political ideology, as was NATO. NATO was used throughout the 20th century to enforce what it called "democracy" on communist states. It largely failed and millions of people had to pay the price for NATO's aggression. Come the 21st century and there is no longer a Soviet Union, no longer a political excuse for NATO to continue its vast, bloody military adventurism, but NATO continues business as usual, and won't stop until there is no sovereign state that is not strung up like a puppet by the West.

And no this statement is not bullshit and devoid of fact, its a fucking reality. Just go and google wars of the 20th and 21st century and maybe your rose tinted glasses of the West will crack a little, but I'm not confident, you're already too brainwashed to see beyond your ass.

[Murmillus_Prime]

That is a grave error. We germans often get sick about our own talk of guilt in WWI and II. But we still do talk about it and at least most people acknowledge the insane errors and guilt our ancestors committed (There are of course always some fucktards thinking different, but they are a clear minority). I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Other than the crime aspect it is politically totally senseless to talk about Russia without talking about SU. It is simply impossible in fact.

Regardless of the political ideology that governs Russia at any given time that distracts people from the true ambitions of Russia, Russia has strong geopolitical national interests that revolve around its own borders.

Where as NATO's actions to secure its geopolitical ambitions and America's national interests are projected globally.

If you guys actually want an unbiased objective view on the collapse of the Soviet Union and the creation of the Russian federation and its geopolitical ambitions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL_09mazZs8&list=UUwnKziETDbHJtx78nIkfYug

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMv9EvthOrQ

The second video explains Russia's modern geopolitical and national interests well. Watch it, if you're not already too brainwashed to disregard an alternate point of view out of hand.