Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Butan]

All I need to remember, is that before Maidan, Ukraine could choose between Europe and Russia. Now it is solely a European client, for political reasons.
Another country for the russian haters to add a wall to.

Surely, such a world changing event must have had consequences? You dont think it is related to what happened the days after Maidan ended?...

If you were a ethnic russian living in Ukraine for the past century, maybe you would feel slightly different, living in a country which has become something else without any of their choosing. About the same thing when Crimea got handed to Ukraine a long time ago...
Sorry if I remind you of what was said a few other times in this post, but its good to remember why people are fighting in Ukraine, and whats the background of it.

Yea, lets split a country in half. What a good idea! Lets tell one side that the other one is full of violent chocolate chip cookies and they have no other choice but to fight and give random bulky assed guys heavy weaponry. This is definately the best way to split a country. What you think these fullyarmed masked guys in green bulletproofvests who rob banks and cardealerships are gonna just lay down their arms and relax once Ukraine leaves them alone and lets them join russia peacefully? Dont be so naive.

And a country which does not split, but have its government firmly in the hands of ethnic Ukrainian Europe-loving , repressing ethnic Russian Russia-loving, is best?

The part on the fully armed masked guys is very funny, knowing that after Maidan success, many of the guys who were behind it went on to join militias and do robbery/sacking/murders in most of western/center Ukraine.
Ukraine government had to fight them and killed a few, mostly the least appreciable extreme right wing of them, but the country is still partly "under control" of civilians with poor ethics.

[Tibe]

You know you wouldnt be so pro-russian yourself if you knew the facts. The reason why a lot of people are russian haters is totally Russias own fault. Its foreignpolicy towards its neibhours has always been very hostile.

[Molly]

I remember that nobody could choose cuz Russia was blackmailing the Ukraine to not join the EU with oil prices.
But let's overlook that conveniently, right Butan?

[Butan]

I remember that nobody could choose cuz Russia was blackmailing the Ukraine to not join the EU with oil prices.
But let's overlook that conveniently, right Butan?

Could be these were offers "they could not refuse", but you cant deny they were largely better offers than EU ones, economically.
Even after Maidan success, what the European union and major actors of the western world offered to Ukraine, was very weak in comparison to what they had with Russia.

To the price of being politically closer to Russia? One could say so.
Now in exchange of "an illusion of a choice", the Ukraine has nothing anymore, officially, and to add it all up, the choice sucks.

You know you wouldnt be so pro-russian yourself if you knew the facts. The reason why a lot of people are russian haters is totally Russias own fault. Its foreignpolicy towards its neibhours has always been very hostile.

Sorry to not have had your personal experience on the matter of "russia is bad mkay".

[DonNicko]

If you really think that the plan to annex territories popped up since Maydan then you must have really short memory. Do you remember how it all started on the east?
"We want more freedom, we are Ukrainians who want more power in our region" -> "We want federalization, we don't want Kiev to have all the power" -> "Nаzi Kiev and fascists from Right Sector, we want to be independent, glory to DNR/LNR" -> "We want to join Russia, Russia is the last safe place in this world" -> "Fuck Ukrainians, glory to Russia".

He is not dumb, Crimea will be almost impossible to handle without eastern parts of Ukraine. If you stop the ATO - they will try to join Russia one more time (they failed once if you remember).

Maybe they will, so it's better to make this votes by Ukranian authorities, as I know Kiev says that there is only few terrorists and all others want to stay in Ukraine and this ATO is to save people from tyranny of russian terrorists. If Kiev so sure in their opinion then let they stop this war make an elections. Everybody will be happy. Then falsificate results if neccesary and that's all. I think there is a lot of diplomatic variants to solve this problem, I haven't seen none. I hear only how Russia is bad that all.

[Tibe]

Their choice sux cause Russia made is suck. It was "pick me or I break legs" kind of deal. Way to support blackmailers Butan. How fucking hard would it have been for Russia to just deal with it? Infact if they had dealt with it like grownups instead of barbarians like they usually are, they would have won a lot of stars with EU, Ukraine would have gained a lot, Europe would have gained aswell. Instead they acted like assholes and fucked Ukr up for getting too friendly with the other side.

[Butan]

Their choice sux cause Russia made is suck. It was "pick me or I break legs" kind of deal. Way to support blackmailers Butan. How fucking hard would it have been for Russia to just deal with it? Infact if they had dealt with it like grownups instead of barbarians like they usually are, they would have won a lot of stars with EU, Ukraine would have gained a lot, Europe would have gained aswell. Instead they acted like assholes and fucked Ukr up for getting too friendly with the other side.

I would direct you to the section of "economical war" and "what happens to economical relationship when a country changes to a non-friendly government".

You would read a lot on countries which does not have the name "Russia" and would probably begin to shut the hell up about how Russias are the only one being completely cynical and willing to passively destroy countries which arent with them, and use them up as slaves when they are with them.

(click to show/hide)

Was going to name names USA/Europe but then you would say im brainwashed.

Basically, you're supporting the blackmailers from your political side, while I just say who was the best blackmailer of them.
I'm not going to naively say "no to blackmail!" I'm a bit too cynical myself to proclaim that.

[Tibe]

If russia hadnt dicked the newly created goverment, mybe they wouldnt have been so non-friendly. And Europe destroys countries that arent with them? Woot? This isnt the colonial age anymore. The British and the French empire dont exsist anymore. Europe doesnt do jackshit outside of its own borders exept occasionally support USA in its stupid crusades, but that just about it. USA yes does destroy countries that arent with them. Thats kinda oblivious. And even if Ukraine had chosen to stay with Russia, obliviously EU nor USA would have never tried to rip Ukr to shreads, raise prices or straightup ban Ukr goods. Unlike Russia, EU doesnt play it that way and doesnt hold grudges.

[Butan]

If russia hadnt dicked the newly created goverment, mybe they wouldnt have been so non-friendly.

Thats childish: both reacted negatively, with reasons. I'm not going to debate on which fired first when its obvious they both had the intent to not be friends from the get go...



On the economical prospects, I just have to say this: Rendez vous in 5-10 years to ask Ukrainians how is life in Europe.

By then, we will have all moved on with our lives, and this topic will be forgotten; I dare hope some will remember of it.

[Tibe]

Life in Europe would be swell if Russia left them alone. Obliviously it will never happen. Russia will dick Ukraine forever for its disobedience to its supreme rule. Take it from a person of a country that used to be part of Russia once. They will definately be bitter about it for a veeeery long time. I mean they are still quite bitter about us, they still economically screw us for no reason and call us fascists for no reason. We havent got a single extremist even close to the goverment btw. Cant imagine what they have instored for Ukraine. I mean we are small and we were never that dependant on Russia anyway, so their dicking does little damage to us. But Ukraine is screwed for reals.

[Oberyn]

A malaysian flight with 300 people on board apparently crashed in Ukraine. Reason unknown atm.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

[Overdriven]

Not sure of the truth of this:
Anton Herashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying the plane had been hit by a missile at an altitude of 10,000m (33,000ft).

But certainly suspect.

[[ptx]]

Well, this thread hasn't progressed anywhere in the last hundred pages or so.

Also, i cringe every time you say "oblivious", Tibe.

[Vovka]

Reason unknown atm.

broken conditioner

[okiN]

A malaysian flight with 300 people on board apparently crashed in Ukraine. Reason unknown atm.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

Looks like someone got their civilian and military aircraft mixed up. This is pretty bad.