Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 624968 times)

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Offline Thomek

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4530 on: July 06, 2014, 01:34:15 am »
+2
As I said in the begining of this thread, a lot of soldiers and officer of the regular army joined the separatists (while Pravy Sector joined the National Guard). So, that explain why they have trained figthers and logistic.
Ukraine is one of the first country in military equipment production. They don't really need help from outside. BUT... I don't say it's not the case. I'm just sceptical when I hear NATO nations constantly blame Russia with slight or no proof.
 Because, I ,actually, have more evidences that we (western countries) have strongly helped the Maïdan insurection (especially before and after this event).

IMO, there is no good guys or bad guys (except Svoboda and Pravy S.). And Putin is not worst than Obama. But the western empire drives too many agressive policies all around the world. Just to avoid an Eurasiatic bloc and preserve the dollar domination. It's dangerous, and it leads to war and totalitarism everywhere.

Tovi, yes, the west (mostly US) have been some bad bastards since the fall of the SU, but you have to understand this is simply because RF have been chaos most of that time, and the US took the huge power vacuum that emerged when SU fell. This doesn't automatically make Russia good however. Many parts of Eastern Europe drowned in alchohol, crime, corruption, decay and poverty after SU fall. Perhaps partly because of the shock economics, but also simply because it just takes time to turn the minds of people, not to mention giant armies, ineffective industries and infrastructure. With the SU planned economy, whole cities and regions suddenly had very little to do. Now that RF is back on their feet, it is important for them to show strength. Both as a signal to other world players, but also to their own population.

I have seen some parts of eastern europe through travels. What I've seen is that it is almost a line going from the western parts to the eastern. It gets worse and worse the more east you go. Then you get to Russia, which is crazy.

I do understand why ukrainians want to turn west. Because if you just look around a bit, it is all very clear. Life for the average person is better the more west you go. The west have a system that works best in the world. That's why the west is on top of it. Eastern Bloc countries come from a system that collapsed on its own feet, and they are only to various degrees freed from it. The rotten system didn't really change that much.

Tovi, understand this please:
You or I might not love US foreign policy or EU policy. It can be quite scary at times with the mixup with capitalism and power.
But this doesn't mean the rest of the world is better. Most of the world, is way way worse. More lies, more theft, much more poverty, more desperation, more pollution, more abuse of the average person. Even though capitalism is unfair as fuck, most other systems are way more unfair in practice.

This is the perspective I look at this Ukraine case in. What is better for Ukrainian people and the country itself? Russia will not impose on them effective anti-corruption measures. Russia thrives and uses the corruption for its own benefit (just like in Russia).

IMO Russia know they have lost Ukraine long time ago. Now they just forcibly say to them that they are tied together in blood. (which they are) And they better never forget it. Sooner or later, even Russia itself will move westward. There is a limit to how long their propaganda can keep their own people in check with the internet around. People want justice, not crime, democracy, not corruption, and even great Putler will have to adapt.
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Offline Tibe

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4531 on: July 06, 2014, 08:16:36 am »
+2
You dont know shit about the East tovi. You live in France and you think USA is the worst thing that ever happened, clearly proves that you dont know anything about the actual situation. The thing is im more than certain if USA didnt exsist and there was no NATO, many Eastern-EU countries wouldnt even exsist by this time, due to being owned by Russia, or would be in a same shit state that eastern Ukraine is at. I dont think you consider Russia a threat because technically you are safe and so is your country. Trust me man, if your country and russia shared a border, you would think completely different things.

Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4532 on: July 06, 2014, 08:20:39 am »
0
Tovi, yes, the west (mostly US) have been some bad bastards since the fall of the SU, but you have to understand this is simply because RF have been chaos most of that time, and the US took the huge power vacuum that emerged when SU fell. This doesn't automatically make Russia good however. Many parts of Eastern Europe drowned in alchohol, crime, corruption, decay and poverty after SU fall. Perhaps partly because of the shock economics, but also simply because it just takes time to turn the minds of people, not to mention giant armies, ineffective industries and infrastructure. With the SU planned economy, whole cities and regions suddenly had very little to do. Now that RF is back on their feet, it is important for them to show strength. Both as a signal to other world players, but also to their own population.

I have seen some parts of eastern europe through travels. What I've seen is that it is almost a line going from the western parts to the eastern. It gets worse and worse the more east you go. Then you get to Russia, which is crazy.

I do understand why ukrainians want to turn west. Because if you just look around a bit, it is all very clear. Life for the average person is better the more west you go. The west have a system that works best in the world. That's why the west is on top of it. Eastern Bloc countries come from a system that collapsed on its own feet, and they are only to various degrees freed from it. The rotten system didn't really change that much.

Tovi, understand this please:
You or I might not love US foreign policy or EU policy. It can be quite scary at times with the mixup with capitalism and power.
But this doesn't mean the rest of the world is better. Most of the world, is way way worse. More lies, more theft, much more poverty, more desperation, more pollution, more abuse of the average person. Even though capitalism is unfair as fuck, most other systems are way more unfair in practice.

This is the perspective I look at this Ukraine case in. What is better for Ukrainian people and the country itself? Russia will not impose on them effective anti-corruption measures. Russia thrives and uses the corruption for its own benefit (just like in Russia).
<...>

I think Tovi knows better. Than you and than 3 former SU nations, which recently signed association treaty with EU. And also Tovi knows, that NATO does not have intelligence capabilities. And the fact that they are using commercial sattelite images instead of their own military grade stuff is a sign of their incompetence and weakness. Such an incompetent and weak filthy western capitalism born organization CAN'T possibly speak truth.

"we must trust putler"...

Offline serr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4533 on: July 06, 2014, 09:44:35 am »
+7
Quote
Trust me man, if your country and russia shared a border, you would think completely different things.

No, he wouldn't. He would understand russian, read russian conspirology theories (this one is best http://vodaspb.ru/english/index.html ), call current antiterrorist operation a genocide against russian people done by jews and ukrainian fascists, praise Stalin, deny Holodomor and call repressions done by him necessary measures.

Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4534 on: July 06, 2014, 11:05:31 am »
-6
Ukrainian fascist hate jews too. That's why Israel is very doubtful with new Kiev power.

I don't say NATO was a bad thing. But actually we don't need it anymore. Because the new threat comes from the West. I really don't fear Russia and Putin. And no, the West is not the best model, it's just the most powerfull. It leechs all natural ressources of the rest of the world for its own profit. The USA are one of the most violent country, inside or outside its borders. With the world record of people in jail. One of the most unequal economic system. Even Cuba have better result in his average health with much less money.
Corruption is a part of our system, with lobbies influence, commercial and medias brainwashing. But ok, US and EU have money, and tons of debts impossible to pay back. But we have shit load of WEAPONS, so we don't give a fuck and we tell to the world what is good and what is bad : our dictators and terrorists are good guys while elected people like Chavez and Putin are dangerous populist. Even if they are far more popular than our own leaders. No matter we are the Good in any case.

Now Ukraine joined this heaven. We have bought their mineral ressources and Monsanto will control one of the most fertile land in the world. The country will now support debt and austerity.
If some eastern countries have a better economic situation it's because EU paid for, with my taxes.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4535 on: July 06, 2014, 11:10:26 am »
+1
Ukrainian fascist hate jews too. That's why Israel is very doubtful with new Kiev power.

I don't say NATO was a bad thing. But actually we don't need it anymore. Because the new threat comes from the West. [...]
Stopped reading there.
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Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4536 on: July 06, 2014, 11:16:52 am »
-4
When the dollar system will collapse (soon), you'll understand.
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Offline DaveUKR

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4537 on: July 06, 2014, 11:47:15 am »
0
When the dollar system will collapse (soon), you'll understand.

Haha, Tovi is a collateral damage of Russian propaganda :lol:

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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4538 on: July 06, 2014, 11:52:44 am »
+2
You know, I'm starting to wonder whether Tovi is just a really patient troll... nobody can be that stupid for real, right?
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Offline Tibe

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4539 on: July 06, 2014, 11:56:22 am »
0
He can. I've seen it irl. But they were fresh immigrants, while tovi is....ehh...I dont know.

Mybe Tovi has some agenda, mybe USA killed his cat or something.

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4540 on: July 06, 2014, 01:18:10 pm »
0
I have to doubt that Tovi has ever been outside his own country, much less travelled around the world. So little clue, such a warped and surreal perspective :|

Offline Yarl

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4541 on: July 06, 2014, 01:20:23 pm »
0
Haha, Tovi is a collateral damage of Russian propaganda :lol:

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Offline DaveUKR

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4542 on: July 06, 2014, 02:11:20 pm »
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Offline Yarl

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4543 on: July 06, 2014, 03:09:15 pm »
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Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4544 on: July 06, 2014, 03:13:50 pm »
0
<...>
Я вообще себя забанил в этой теме да и в целом новости про укр.,  просто пролистывал и увидел, что наконец-то ты не стал сдерживаться и дал волю чувствам  :D
CBA to write kirilica, but still - this is I think one of the funnier things I read, even if kirilica hurts my eyes ;) You sound like you put your imperialistic-self-righteous-putler-supporting-all-knowing-and-objective ass on a podium and see truth from there + a bunch of idiots, who are not happy about shit russia is staging in Ukraine. And you cant understand why on earth should someone NOT like you or what your belived putler is doing there... you are on a podium after all... master-slav-race and all that shit shining bright about, yes?

And since news might crack your kingdom of curved mirrors - no uncomfortable news is allowed (unless served by putler approved media, I guess?).

Good fucking luck...