Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Porthos]

Recently, however, there have been concerns about Kremlin financing various political and ideological elements in Latvia, in an effort to destabilize the country... A mainly Russian party is also suspected to receive financing from the Kremlin.

Sounds so familiar here in Russia, where every opposition force is suspected of financing from abroad (US mostly). And I first time hear that the riots in Riga were actually provoked by the Russians, or under Russian influence. Similarly, many of Russians believe that the Bolotnaya square case was caused by US Department of State. So, as I see, the political attitudes are more or less the same for every nation, and these mutual accusations on in fact groundless matters will never end. Thanks for the answer.

[Thomek]

On this - I agree. After series of provocations fools started firing. Too true. Do you want me to accept a fact, that Georgia suddenly started firing on some of their citizens and russia just HAD to protect them because...reasons? That's the story you believe? That a literally country of few million suddenly, unprovoked, decided to attack... who? Was it russia? Or a bunch of would be separatists, just like russia did in Chechnya? I'm confused, please enlighten me, how was it whitewashed in putlers media?

About Georgia, to make the story simple: Russians supported separatists for ages, and did a series of provocations. The idiot president Sakashvili took the bait and attacked. The whole point was to quickly take the area before Russians could send reinforcements through one of very few tunnels through the mountains.

Now, of course, the Russians were either alerted to the plan of attack (Since they basically had the  whole situation constructed in the first place), or more likely, just waiting at the other side of the tunnel, on high alert ready to strike.

If you look at the size of the areas involved, I think it's pretty clear the Russians were ready to attack, and it basically all played out as the chess players planned.

It's just another case of the usual strategy of supporting violent separatist elements, giving them reason to fight, and backing them up with "peacekeepers". In Georgia the strategic reason is access through the Caucasus. In Ukraine, the reason is support at home, protection of defence industry, and taking back Crimea/securing the black sea for all future.

Now..

Russia is a very landlocked country for its size and population. They want to secure geographical strategic access where they can:

Vladivostok (pacific/asia), Murmansk/Arkhangelsk (North passages/Arctic/Atlantic) , St.Petersburg (Baltic sea/Atlantic), Crimea (Black Sea/Mediterranean sea), Georgia (Land access to middle east), Ukraine (Land access to european borders)

Now, to protect their interests they are obviously willing to defend, secure, usurp/weaken all these points to get global possibilities.

These are the real reasons for why Russia act like they do. Their interests are to keep Ukraine a weak semi-independent, semi autonomous state. Not as a real democracy.

It's possible to both understand the Russians, and at the same time agree their government are complete assholes to other nations. Now they are fucking Ukraine bad, and there is no reason to defend what they do unless you happen to be a Russian with a strong personal conviction of RealPolitik.

[Butan]

Fools dont start firing from mortars. As I said I was there, and there was a lot of rockets, that was not one foolish man started to fire, that was massive atack at once. I was wounded there in the right leg with bullet while carrying wounded people, a lot of people were dead. We protected ourselves. Seems you believe only what you want to believe as many people. And now you will say it all is made by Putin ofcource, can you say how russia provoked them, why there were so many tanks btrs and troops?

There was many tanks etc because Russia and Georgia built up their military presence for weeks prior to the declaration of war.

They both accused each other of preparing for war, which had the effect to keep increasing military presence on both sides.
Then accusations of provocations, accusations of tortures/murders, accusations of skirmishes... then Georgia moved in.

Sorry for you Kuujis but even if that looks stupid, Georgia was the attacker in that war. Even NATO, OSCE, EU controlled agency agreed to this conclusion. Even Georgia itself. They tried to reclaim territories in a surprise attack invasion, with forces that roughly equalled those of the russians local forces. They failed, Russia won, and if they were so evil powermonger they could have completely annexed Georgia if they wanted to  but they were happy just keeping South Ossetia and Abkhazia as "independant" regions.



So actually, except for accusations of "Putin planned all this since beginning", the ONLY war Russia has been a part of since 1991, was a defensive war

 ---_________________---

[DonNicko]

OMG my government didn't tell me that Georgia will atack, and all peacemakers that were with me also werent informed. Did I miss the strategy of Russia

[DaveUKR]

OMG my government didn't tell me that Georgia will atack, and all peacemakers that were with me also werent informed. Did I miss the strategy of Russia

Now tell me how is South Ossetia doing now? Compare it to modern Georgia and with all honour tell me that it would be worse for them if they didn't separate with help of Russia. 5.5 years passed and South Ossetia lost even trains, I don't speak about planes or at least world's acknowledge. But yes, the can buy Russian gas 1/3 price of what they would buy it being a part of Georgia, but who cares if South Ossetia is a forsaken place now?

[Kuujis]

OMG my government didn't tell me that Georgia will atack, and all peacemakers that were with me also werent informed. Did I miss the strategy of Russia

Peacemakers... riiight Start a conflict, then "peacemake" and get shot... epic strategy!

<...>
Sorry for you Kuujis but even if that looks stupid, Georgia was the attacker in that war. Even NATO, OSCE, EU controlled agency agreed to this conclusion. Even Georgia itself. They tried to reclaim territories in a surprise attack invasion, with forces that roughly equalled those of the russians local forces. They failed, Russia won, and if they were so evil powermonger they could have completely annexed Georgia if they wanted to  but they were happy just keeping South Ossetia and Abkhazia as "independant" regions.

I know it was, thats why I wrote:
Quote from: DonNicko on Today at 07:32:41 pm

    Georgia was an agressor, that was said by OSCE. I was there when they started to launch rockets. I drived a car to take wounded people.

On this - I agree. After series of provocations fools started firing.<...>

And as you have well identified - this was after provocations and other BS happening there, so taking it out of context is also quite fishy. In the end - I think Georgia had the same choice as Ukraine has now: do not give in to provocations and get "landgrabbed" (we all saw how well restraint worked in Crimea) or actually fight for ones country. And again - as I wrote couple of times already - restraint shown by current Ukraine government is laudable IMO. When you are forced to defend - you have to defend.

So actually, except for accusations of "Putin planned all this since beginning", the ONLY war Russia has been a part of since 1991, was a defensive war

 ---_________________---

And that proves or disproves what exactly? 

[Butan]

Nothing, I thought you disagreed with me    I'm not accustomed to this  ^^

[DonNicko]

Now tell me how is South Ossetia doing now? Compare it to modern Georgia and with all honour tell me that it would be worse for them if they didn't separate with help of Russia. 5.5 years passed and South Ossetia lost even trains, I don't speak about planes or at least world's acknowledge. But yes, the can buy Russian gas 1/3 price of what they would buy it being a part of Georgia, but who cares if South Ossetia is a forsaken place now?

I don't know how Ossetia is doing now. I think you too. What about Odessa, any results?
watching video now

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[DonNicko]

Peacemakers... riiight Start a conflict, then "peacemake" and get shot... epic strategy!

I didn't start this war and I saved some people and got shot. Are you laughing at me?

[Porthos]

Now tell me how is South Ossetia doing now? Compare it to modern Georgia and with all honour tell me that it would be worse for them if they didn't separate with help of Russia. 5.5 years passed and South Ossetia lost even trains, I don't speak about planes or at least world's acknowledge. But yes, the can buy Russian gas 1/3 price of what they would buy it being a part of Georgia, but who cares if South Ossetia is a forsaken place now?

As far as I know, people of South Ossetia has no regrets about what was happened back then. At least currently there is none of them wants to return back under the control of Georgia. Or am I wrong?

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Хм, я, кстати, не совсем понял о чем ты, в этом моменте: "Южная Осетия потеряла даже поезда, не говоря уж о самолетах..."? Что имелось в виду?

[[ptx]]

Sounds so familiar here in Russia, where every opposition force is suspected of financing from abroad (US mostly). And I first time hear that the riots in Riga were actually provoked by the Russians, or under Russian influence. Similarly, many of Russians believe that the Bolotnaya square case was caused by US Department of State. So, as I see, the political attitudes are more or less the same for every nation, and these mutual accusations on in fact groundless matters will never end. Thanks for the answer.

Let me elaborate - the party in question is not a minor one, it is a very prominent political force. The riots started from a peaceful demonstration. The demonstration, whilst populist in nature, proceeded without incident, but as it was coming to a close, a group of people managed to escalate it to a riot. Riots are EXTREMELY uncommon in this country, it's just not in our nature to riot. Some people, that had attended the demonstration, noted that there were a lot of russian-speaking people in it, which is also uncommon for such demonstrations, and that some of the things they overheard them talking about made it seem like they are not from Latvia.

[Lt_Anders]

As far as I know, people of South Ossetia has no regrets about what was happened back then. At least currently there is none of them wants to return back under the control of Georgia. Or am I wrong?

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Хм, я, кстати, не совсем понял о чем ты, в этом моменте: "Южная Осетия потеряла даже поезда, не говоря уж о самолетах..."? Что имелось в виду?

Not sure if it's indicative but:
In the wake of the 2008 South Ossetia War, Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Nauru recognised South Ossetia's independence.[10][11][12][13][14] Georgia does not recognise the existence of South Ossetia as a political entity, including most of the area in its Shida Kartli region. Georgia and a significant part of the international community consider South Ossetia to be occupied by the Russian military. South Ossetia relies heavily on military, political and financial aid from Russia.[15][16][17] Russia does not allow European Union Monitoring Mission monitors to enter South Ossetia.[18]

The war left the mostly Ossetian city of Tskhinvali heavily damaged.[71] Both during and after the war, South Ossetian authorities and irregular militia conducted a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Georgians in South Ossetia,[72] with Georgian villages around Tskhinvali being destroyed after the war had ended.[71] The war displaced 192,000 people,[73] and while many were able to return to their homes after the war, a year later around 30,000 ethnic Georgians remained displaced.[74] In an interview published in “Kommersant”, South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity said he would not allow Georgians to return.[75][76]

Though it was widely claimed by Georgian authorities that the war was started by the Russians, the independent fact-finding mission on the conflict in Georgia, led by Heidi Tagliavini, stated that it was started by Georgian shelling of the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, while open hostilities between Georgia and Russia are considered to have started on 8 August 2008. However, the report noted that all parties played a role in the buildup of tensions in the months prior, and that all sides displayed a disproportionate and unjustified use of force.[72]

Before the 2008 South Ossetia war, South Ossetia's industry consisted of 22 small factories, with a total production of 61.6 million rubles in 2006. In 2007, only 7 factories were functioning. In March, 2009, it was reported that most of the production facilities were standing idle and were in need of repairs. Even successful factories have a shortage of workers, are in debt and have a shortage of working capital.[132] One of the largest local enterprises is the Emalprovod factory, which has 130 employees.[132]Much of the economy is based around the presence of Russian military forces.[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

[Porthos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

I'm not sure what you wanted to say by this link. Yes, the city of Tskhinval was damaged, yes the South Ossetia has not their own economy ('cos pre-2008 economic model was based on the relationship with Georgia), and they live at the expense of subsidies from Russia. But still people/politicians of that land don't seem to yearn for Georgia. And there is no solution, but to force them to return into Georgia by a military force at the moment. We could talk about how it would be great if they were together, but the South Ossetian part actually just don't want that. What's there to discuss then?

[Kafein]

A smarter question would be: if I have to choose between a world with 1 global superpower and 2+, I would choose 2+.

The idea that two or more global superpowers is better than one is ludicrous.

First, let's just recap history a little bit. For the greatest part of the 19th and 20th centuries, the world was made up of a handful of superpowers. Great Britain, Russia, France, Austria, Germany, USA. Guess what happened during that time ? Wars. WW1 originated from the clash of two mega alliances. WW2 originated from the clash of two mega alliances. As soon as we invented nuclear bombs, actual wars went out of style, so the Cold War blocks had a cold war instead. If we look at history before that, the most peaceful periods of time in a given region happened simultaneously with the whole region being controlled by one political entity. Like the Roman Empire in Italy. Conversely, areas with geopolitical fragmentation, such as most of Europe during the middle ages, suffered constant warfare.

Second, let's take the European Union as example. If you don't like American Imperialism, you must absolutely hate what the European Union is, right ? Otherwise you are reaching maximum hypocrisy. Guess what, the EU is a major factor for stability and prosperity. The same can be said of China throughout history. When China was split, it was a shithole of rivaling kingdoms.

Third, the geopolitical argument. Isolated entities creates balance of power dynamics, and inevitably leads to hate and wars. You can't go to war without enemies, which is exactly the point of being a single geopolitical entity, ruled by laws and not by bully power.

USA cant be trusted with the fate of the planet (noone is except if they manage to conquer everything :d), and I will welcome the day Russia becomes great again mostly because we need an opposition to imperialism, even if its just a second imperialism, because thats always better than a kind of shady world dictatorship.

What makes you think a politically globalised world would be a "kind of shady world dictatorship" ? Is the EU a "kind of shady european dictatorship" ? Problems arise in the EU when members think as nation-states and try to abuse the system.

Then ofc I would also prefer there is no few uber-OP nations just choosing the destiny of everyone else, but its a thing of our time 

So what would you prefer exactly ? Ancien Régime ? Feodalism ? Clans/Tribes ?

[Tomas_Miles_again]

So essentially this whole shebang might end with a unified human race? Got to ask  which superpower would you prefer to win the ultimate world war?