Author Topic: Thoughts on Religion and the State  (Read 25079 times)

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Offline zagibu

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #195 on: November 28, 2013, 12:22:36 am »
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Has obviously never seen Dexter

I hope that was sarcasm, because Dexter kind of tries to show that it is NEVER justified.
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Offline Corsair831

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #196 on: November 28, 2013, 03:51:48 am »
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And where is the evidence that religious people are in any way shape or form "less immoral" than people that are not religious ?

interestingly, there are some statistics floating about concerning religiosity of a society vs. societal health, (an example of bad societal health, high unrest, rapes, murder, dissatisfaction with the government etc)

the interesting thing was that these statistics actually found that the more religion the worse the societal health

source: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.pdf
article sourced from: http://furiouspurpose.me/societal-health-correlates-inversely-with-religiosity/  (was a google search)

admitedly this is only one study so it shouldn't be taken as 'gospel' (so to speak :P), but still, it's certainly very interesting, considering the majority of the religious I have ever spoken to have been quite convinced it's the other way (as in the more religion the better)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 03:55:08 am by Corsair831 »
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Offline Corsair831

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #197 on: November 28, 2013, 04:02:16 am »
+1
as for the guys playing semantics with the term 'atheist' a few pages ago, I think the majority of intelligent 'atheists' realise that they are in fact 'hard line agnostics' (as being an atheist is of course an act of faith aka a new religion (yes, the terrible irony, oh it is amusing in a sardonic kind of way), as opposed to 'atheists'. one of the most common comparisons drawn is that one is an atheist in terms of god in the same way in which one is an atheist in terms of fairies, yetis, santa, and of course the famous one, the 'flying spaghetti monster'.
 Regardless, it's a rather pointless game in semantics and rather a boring and repetitive argument from both sides

i personally like the way that famous old god hater Dawkins puts it, calling himself a 'Practical Atheist' as opposed to just an atheist

 .. of course there are those few atheists out there trying their very best to give the rest of us a bad name by spouting just as much gibberish as the religious themselves (not realising that they are painting the picture of atheism as a religion rather than the absence of a religion), but hey, there's always a few




I read through some of this thread, and I have to say, a lot of it has descended into silly accusation throwing, rapid 'point' switching and walls of texts. I've debated (come argued :P) with many religious people over the years, and I think i've learnt over this time that when talking with the religious i'm not on the defensive, in any argument with them, quite the opposite, they are.

-the vast majority of the great thinkers in the (western, at least) world are on the side of the non-religious (academically speaking)
-the vast majority of the evidence in the religious debate is on the 'non-religious' 'side'
-the vast majority of the arguments used by the religious have logic flaws, which can be resolutely 'beaten' (terrible phrasing, as you do not want to come across as fighting with the religious!!), if you simply stay on point and calmly present your evidence
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 04:17:27 am by Corsair831 »
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Offline Jarold

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #198 on: November 28, 2013, 04:42:23 am »
-1
interestingly, there are some statistics floating about concerning religiosity of a society vs. societal health, (an example of bad societal health, high unrest, rapes, murder, dissatisfaction with the government etc)

the interesting thing was that these statistics actually found that the more religion the worse the societal health

source: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.pdf
article sourced from: http://furiouspurpose.me/societal-health-correlates-inversely-with-religiosity/  (was a google search)

admitedly this is only one study so it shouldn't be taken as 'gospel' (so to speak :P), but still, it's certainly very interesting, considering the majority of the religious I have ever spoken to have been quite convinced it's the other way (as in the more religion the better)

If you've studied some United States history and other things like it for a little while you would see the United Stated was an exception. It's early years they focused on keeping religious beliefs the core of it's country. Slowly but surely they started separating religious beliefs and standards from public life. If you do a quick study you will see how much social health (crime) has risen over the years.

Offline Jarold

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #199 on: November 28, 2013, 04:45:48 am »
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-the vast majority of the great thinkers in the (western, at least) world are on the side of the non-religious (academically speaking)

What are their names exactly?

-the vast majority of the evidence in the religious debate is on the 'non-religious' 'side'

What qualifies as "on the religious side"?

Offline Paul

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #200 on: November 28, 2013, 05:15:05 am »
+3
I have looked into evolution and I can't even understand why it's in textbooks these days. It's not even a law, just a theory it's never been proven. Evolution can't be studied by the scientific method of testing over and over again with the human senses. It doesn't do the theory of evolution much credit either with all the fake fossils they have tried to make their theory a law. I could go all day on this but it's getting off topic. If you want I can give more facts about evolution not making sense.

I think this is just trolling but whatever. There are no laws. There are only theories that have to descripe reality to a certain degree. Evolution is by far the best we have to explain how different species developed. So putting creationism and evolution on the same level textbook-wise would mean we would have to put hollow-earth and timecube into them as well. Who falls for all those fake satellite photos depicting a round earth? Have you been up there?

Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #201 on: November 28, 2013, 05:23:48 am »
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I have looked into evolution and I can't even understand why it's in textbooks these days. It's not even a law, just a theory it's never been proven. Evolution can't be studied by the scientific method of testing over and over again with the human senses. It doesn't do the theory of evolution much credit either with all the fake fossils they have tried to make their theory a law. I could go all day on this but it's getting off topic. If you want I can give more facts about evolution not making sense.
You haven't given a single fact yet of how the evolution makes no sense. First, find out what "theory" means in science. Second, yes, evolution can be studied by the scientific method; there are many ways to do that, some of which have to do with DNA and others with direct observation and deduction. Fake fossils have nothing to do with the theory of evolution. They neither strengthen nor weaken it; is the plausibility of Christianity weakened, in your opinion, if a single priest steals the donation money in a small town?
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Offline Jarold

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #202 on: November 28, 2013, 05:28:19 am »
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I think this is just trolling but whatever. There are no laws. There are only theories that have to descripe reality to a certain degree. Evolution is by far the best we have to explain how different species developed. So putting creationism and evolution on the same level textbook-wise would mean we would have to put hollow-earth and timecube into them as well. Who falls for all those fake satellite photos depicting a round earth? Have you been up there?

It's something called logic, which is exactly what evolution lacks. Evolution is as unproven as they get, absolutely nothing backing it up. No change of kinds, no in between forms, and no evidence whatsoever. So tell me again why it's the best theory.

If you want I can point out the evidences for Creationism and more reasons why evolution is a load of hooey.


Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #203 on: November 28, 2013, 05:31:01 am »
+2
It's something called logic, which is exactly what evolution lacks. Evolution is as unproven as they get, absolutely nothing backing it up. No change of kinds, no in between forms, and no evidence whatsoever. So tell me again why it's the best theory.

If you want I can point out the evidences for Creationism and more reasons why evolution is a load of hooey.
I really hope you're trolling. You claim to have studied it, and yet you're this ignorant?

Nothing in the real world can be proved with absolute certainty. However, high degrees of certainty can be reached. In the case of evolution, we have huge amounts of data from diverse fields. Extensive evidence exists in all of the following different forms (Theobald 2004). Each new piece of evidence tests the rest.
All life shows a fundamental unity in the mechanisms of replication, heritability, catalysis, and metabolism.
Common descent predicts a nested hierarchy pattern, or groups within groups. We see just such an arrangement in a unique, consistent, well-defined hierarchy, the so-called tree of life.
Different lines of evidence give the same arrangement of the tree of life. We get essentially the same results whether we look at morphological, biochemical, or genetic traits.
Fossil animals fit in the same tree of life. We find several cases of transitional forms in the fossil record.
The fossils appear in a chronological order, showing change consistent with common descent over hundreds of millions of years and inconsistent with sudden creation.
Many organisms show rudimentary, vestigial characters, such as sightless eyes or wings useless for flight.
Atavisms sometimes occur. An atavism is the reappearance of a character present in a distant ancestor but lost in the organism's immediate ancestors. We only see atavisms consistent with organisms' evolutionary histories.
Ontogeny (embryology and developmental biology) gives information about the historical pathway of an organism's evolution. For example, as embryos whales and many snakes develop hind limbs that are reabsorbed before birth.
The distribution of species is consistent with their evolutionary history. For example, marsupials are mostly limited to Australia, and the exceptions are explained by continental drift. Remote islands often have species groups that are highly diverse in habits and general appearance but closely related genetically. Squirrel diversity coincides with tectonic and sea level changes (Mercer and Roth 2003). Such consistency still holds when the distribution of fossil species is included.
Evolution predicts that new structures are adapted from other structures that already exist, and thus similarity in structures should reflect evolutionary history rather than function. We see this frequently. For example, human hands, bat wings, horse legs, whale flippers, and mole forelimbs all have similar bone structure despite their different functions.
The same principle applies on a molecular level. Humans share a large percentage of their genes, probably more than 70 percent, with a fruit fly or a nematode worm.
When two organisms evolve the same function independently, different structures are often recruited. For example, wings of birds, bats, pterosaurs, and insects all have different structures. Gliding has been implemented in many additional ways. Again, this applies on a molecular level, too.
The constraints of evolutionary history sometimes lead to suboptimal structures and functions. For example, the human throat and respiratory system make it impossible to breathe and swallow at the same time and make us susceptible to choking.
Suboptimality appears also on the molecular level. For example, much DNA is nonfunctional.
Some nonfunctional DNA, such as certain transposons, pseudogenes, and endogenous viruses, show a pattern of inheritance indicating common ancestry.
Speciation has been observed.
The day-to-day aspects of evolution -- heritable genetic change, morphological variation and change, functional change, and natural selection -- are seen to occur at rates consistent with common descent.

Furthermore, the different lines of evidence are consistent; they all point to the same big picture. For example, evidence from gene duplications in the yeast genome shows that its ability to ferment glucose evolved about eighty million years ago. Fossil evidence shows that fermentable fruits became prominent about the same time. Genetic evidence for major change around that time also is found in fruiting plants and fruit flies (Benner et al. 2002).

The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history;
Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.

The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).

Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin's theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact.

If "only a theory" were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact.

Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless.
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Offline Jarold

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #204 on: November 28, 2013, 05:43:52 am »
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Second, yes, evolution can be studied by the scientific method; there are many ways to do that, some of which have to do with DNA and others with direct observation and deduction. Fake fossils have nothing to do with the theory of evolution.

DNA? By your theory of evolution that DNA shouldn't even exist anymore after millions or billions of years. You just check mated yourself. Just to give you reassurance of this here is one small article on the matter. http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-02/whats-half-life-dna

But wait they found DNA in dinosaur fossils which have to be at least 65 million years old right? Or does it make more sense for the dinosaur fossils to be something closer to 10,000+ years old so that they could've found DNA in them.

Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #205 on: November 28, 2013, 05:53:36 am »
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Okay, now I know you're trolling. For a second I thought we had a legit Creationist on the forums.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #206 on: November 28, 2013, 05:54:33 am »
+6
"Jurassic Park" wasn't meant to be a documentary, you know?

Offline Jarold

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #207 on: November 28, 2013, 06:13:55 am »
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Are you guys kidding me? Sure it talks about Jurassic Park but it uses a real study on the decay of DNA to see if Jurassic Park could've worked. The answer was no because you can't get DNA from dinosaurs because DNA decays way before we could've ever gotten to it. However we can for some reason, and you wonder why, because the fossil is only 10,000 or so years old.

Jurassic Park is just an easy gateway to explain it. You guys are the ones scrambling for anyway to disprove that now. :P

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57530019-1/dna-decay-rate-makes-jurassic-park-impossible/ ( Yes it has Jurassic Park :O )


http://eyeonicr.wordpress.com/2012/10/24/just-how-long-does-dna-last/  ( Good article )

Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #208 on: November 28, 2013, 06:18:42 am »
+5
On the other hand, it's hard to tell if somebody pretending to be Creationist is trolling or not; it takes some genuine stupidity rarely encountered in normal situations to actually argue for Creationism over Evolution. I suppose it would fit the general Creationist behavior to ignore the post full of proof and dig up an article about how Jurassic Park, a movie about dinosaurs, couldn't be real.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #209 on: November 28, 2013, 06:21:04 am »
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What's your point, Jarold? How does DNA decay disprove evolution? I don't get it.