Author Topic: Thoughts on Religion and the State  (Read 24787 times)

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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #120 on: November 25, 2013, 04:41:23 am »
+2
Why can't you decide what you want for yourself? Why commit suicide if you enjoy living, as normal human beings do? Why end something you like? You don't stop playing a good game because it, ultimately, has no meaning either.

I'm playing a game because I'm having fun. The question what's the point doesn't normally arise. But maybe I'm in a phase where the game isn't fun. I'm level 5, onehitted after the first 10 seconds, etc. And I'm keeping playing. Why? Because I believe by doing this I will reach a stage where I can have fun, or I'm proud of my achievement or whatever.

Abstract: If someone does anything it's either because he perceives it as worthwhile or because he thinks it's necessary to achieve something worthwhile. That's "what's the point". What's that thing you are trying to reach that you consider worthwhile? It's pretty clear this question can be recursed infinetely etc. etc. Well, some have said it's a silly question (when taken to far). I don't really see why. It's quite obviously extremely important to be able to answer the question for at least some recurses to be able to get through life (what's the point of getting up for work?).

There's also obviously points where the question isn't answered rationally but by hardcoding. Why have sex? Why do drugs? Why be liked by people? Because it feels good.
For other cases you have to posit an ultimate meaning. Saying the recursion never stops doesn't satisfy. And that's the rock bottom foundation of religion I think. There's a lot built around that, but what differenciates it from hobby fairytale club or political party is the belief that there is, in the end, a meaning to all of this and it's all fine. This belief isn't "logical knowledge" and the idea that noone actually understands this ultimate thing is part of it. The point is believing it's there.

Ofc. you can say that's silly thinking. But then what?
As I understand you what you're basically saying is there is no ultimate meaning. It's a delusion. The point of it all is, so to speak, that you feel good. Let's assume you are right.
But as soon as you're actually trying to convice someone of that it becomes ironic. Why are people believing it in the first place? Assuming obviously they are even able to decide what to believe in.
Since it makes them feel good. After all that's all there is. So while you're telling people the important thing is to feel good you're taking from them what makes them feel good (note, I'm not talking about religious organisations or such, just about that "ultimate meaning" thingy). So ... why? You can't say "I helped them overcome a delusion" or "the truth". What's even the point of not having delusions? Whether you feel good obviously. Which isn't the case. So, really, why?

I mean you could easily answer this conclusively by saying making people unhappy makes you happy and that'd be that. Religious people can excuse themselves by believing they have the ultimate truth. But I don't think apart from that there's much point promoting atheism, much less nihilism.

The name as indicator could be a troll.

Obviously. But then maybe people have said the same thing about Laotse back then.

Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #121 on: November 25, 2013, 05:53:40 am »
+2
Plenty of reasons to promote atheism. Stripping potentially dangerous delusions from people, for one.
Meaning lies as much
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as in the Haiku.

Offline EponiCo

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #122 on: November 25, 2013, 06:04:58 am »
0
What's even the point of not having delusions?

... so in what way dangerous?

Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #123 on: November 25, 2013, 06:09:05 am »
+1
Uh, like stoning people to death for ridiculous reasons? Limiting freedom of speech? Murdering people because God said so? Limiting freedom in general?
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Yazid

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #124 on: November 25, 2013, 06:09:30 am »
0
Plenty of reasons to promote atheism. Stripping potentially dangerous delusions from people, for one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldGPptJh0cE&feature=related

Offline Xant

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Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Eugen

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #126 on: November 25, 2013, 07:10:17 am »
+1
Uh, like stoning people to death for ridiculous reasons? Limiting freedom of speech? Murdering people because God said so? Limiting freedom in general?

A fine discussion, since I went to sleep.

I still think religion has its place in private life. At home, in clubs, bars, gardens, internetforums - where people meet and discuss. No one has to fear cruxification, execution or re-education camps, when open discussion an practice of all kind of religions is allowed.

Those things only become a threat when religion gets into politic and only one view becomes legit. And therefore religion has no place in politics but politics need to give religions (and all kinds of them) a place in society, becouse I think its necessary and healthy to give spirituality a place in public life. And finally religions are the institutions for spirituality. In modern western world maybe we dont give a shit about religion and spirituality, becouse we are lucky, rich and healthy winners.

But in the end I think those who dare to ask some unconfortable questions and dare to face depression might be winning on character and wisdom. What again I think, is a good thing in the end. Religions are very different, not all of them make sense to everyone, but some might be a help when deciding personal moral and ethical questions or philosophical problems.

I myslef am raised in a christian surrounding and I think katholic church is a overcome and corrupt institiution. Still there is some value in christian ideas: christians should try not to get into vendettas and feuds becouse "if you get slapped on your right cheek, give him also your left cheek..." Jesus was anticapitalist becouse he threw out the merchants of the temple, he was there for the poor and the sick (not like Osho) and stuff like that - says the passed down legend. If its all true and really happened? I doubt it. But what does it matter? Its a story which shows some nice examples and rulesets for a good living - someone must have thought of as a good idea.

Still I prefer Taoism, becouse it has not such a tainted history as christianity has. And all this only to fill the void of Nihilism. Becouse I admit. I hope universe has prepered some punchline at the end of my time. But I cant know, if i dont live it to the end. I only got this one chance maybe.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 07:31:32 am by Eugen »
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Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #127 on: November 25, 2013, 07:17:13 am »
+2
It is never going to "stay out of politics." If someone believes in an invisible force guiding them AND they are an influential politician, do you really think it'd ever stay out? How could it? Something that huge, being in touch with a God and knowing he's there, would obviously change how you act. How could you be both a politician and allow things to happen that go against your religion when the punishment for that is Hell?
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Eugen

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #128 on: November 25, 2013, 07:26:42 am »
0
In my view, religions are not about power (big god told me and you have to do what I say therfore). Politics do this. People to this. I have never seen some holy entity coming over humankind demanding obedience. Humans and Animals do this for territory, food, luxury and the right to reproduce ones dns. Its in our nature. God is an Ideal, nothing really real. Its a human concept to help us overcome our nature. Just something some yearn for.  Religion for me is purely spiritual. Jesus is shown as a (holy) man or prophet who wanted to make life better for human kind (entitys children). Whats wrong with that?

Shure everything can be used for power: love and seduction, believe and fear, medicine and poison, electric energy and atomic bombs. World didnt change so much, the power hungry get the power and use it for good or for bad. At least we have democracy and some education at our hands...
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 07:29:51 am by Eugen »
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Offline Yazid

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #129 on: November 25, 2013, 07:35:22 am »
0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4

you finally show your true colors, doesn't it feel good?
now i kinda like you

Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2013, 09:00:43 am »
0
In my view, religions are not about power (big god told me and you have to do what I say therfore). Politics do this. People to this. I have never seen some holy entity coming over humankind demanding obedience. Humans and Animals do this for territory, food, luxury and the right to reproduce ones dns. Its in our nature. God is an Ideal, nothing really real. Its a human concept to help us overcome our nature. Just something some yearn for.  Religion for me is purely spiritual. Jesus is shown as a (holy) man or prophet who wanted to make life better for human kind (entitys children). Whats wrong with that?

Shure everything can be used for power: love and seduction, believe and fear, medicine and poison, electric energy and atomic bombs. World didnt change so much, the power hungry get the power and use it for good or for bad. At least we have democracy and some education at our hands...
You've never seen a holy entity coming over humankind demanding obedience because there is no holy entity. In your view religion is purely spiritual and you want to make things better. But that's not everyone's religion, and the bloodthirsty religions tend to garner more support than the peaceful ones. This is why it is better to face the facts: there is no god. Leave no room for these mass-spread delusions that can be very dangerous. When most of the world beside the majority of European countries reach the stage where being religious is an invitation to open ridicule, things will be better. Then religion will retreat to where it will do least amount of harm: to homes, kept as a private affair.

And hopefully, over time, people will learn to cope without imaginary invisible friends and we, as a species, can move on.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #131 on: November 25, 2013, 10:35:53 am »
+1
But, Xant, isn't the scientific approach to NOT deny (but neither affirm) something, until it has been conclusively proven as false? Tsk, tsk!

Offline Eugen

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #132 on: November 25, 2013, 10:50:44 am »
0
If you come to the point when there is no religions on the planet, I guess you will have one of the following scenarios:

- Robots took over the planet
- Jurassic Park took over the world
- Scientific World Revolution: Robots take over the planet or Jurassic park , or both.
- Humanistic Revolution: maybe world communism. Robots take over the Gulags and then rest of the world.
- Alien Invasion. Ah, another myth.

Generally I agree with you. Still I think its better to live with religions then to fight them. When humankind has no need of them, they will vanish anyway. And all the deluded fanatics wouldnt they just turn political fanatics instead of religious ones if they had to?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 10:54:16 am by Eugen »
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Offline cmp

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #133 on: November 25, 2013, 12:43:31 pm »
+6
If you come to the point when there is no religions on the planet, I guess you will have one of the following scenarios:

- Robots took over the planet
- Jurassic Park took over the world
- Scientific World Revolution: Robots take over the planet or Jurassic park , or both.
- Humanistic Revolution: maybe world communism. Robots take over the Gulags and then rest of the world.
- Alien Invasion. Ah, another myth.

- a world full of people who aren't religious

Offline Grumpy_Nic

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #134 on: November 25, 2013, 01:05:41 pm »
+2
Since a cheeseburger at McDonalds costs exactly 1€ I sometimes calculate in cheeseburgers instead of euros. That makes life more fun.
Also nothing to do with op but I couldnt find a topic for that comment.