New DTV Is Shit

[Switchtense]

It's not i like i want to to invisible wall everything. But Shik and myself decided that dtv should no longer have any kind of roof, fence, barn or hut exploiting and the mentality of the majority of the dtv players is still "If i can exploit it, i will exploit it", thus the invisible walls. Every tiny little spot where you can lure the bots without taking any damage will be used and if you think removing exploits from a gamemode is a bad thing, then i'm sorry for you. Those walls are not there to prevent the bots from going anywhere unwanted, because i've noticed that they follow the AI meshes quite nicely, but to prevent the players from finding exploits. Heck, people even nudged and tried it for ever just to find an exploit on a roof.

Sure i can put fences everwhere; and i will put stuff to make the invisible walls visible where i see fit, but that makes the outlay of some maps look like shit and i figured people will get used to the placement of the invisible walls. Sooner or later there will be some more open maps, but for now the bots need more optimization and the small maps on the server make it easier than if you have to face Cav on a wide open field.

The one version of Helms Deep will be edited so you can go down the ladders, for now i wanted to prevent str crutchers to nudge people way beyond the invisible walls and thus getting the fence exploit (only with inv wall) and frankly, i wanted to see how bots react if they have to face ladders only. And they all dismounted, which is good, although then their cav blocks their way further up the ladders, which is bad. But i have some fixes for both problems.

Also, lovely patch day QQ.

absolutely agreed on the exploit part
dtv was all about getting exp while doing nothing, now you gotta do something, which is an improvement

however even after having played on hre, and now on eu7 i still run into the walls getting killed cause of them, keep the invisible wall, but plonk fences or whatever everywhere as well to have a visual border

for the "defence helms deep" i guess no visual borders are needed, plenty of space as it is, but smaller maps like isti and blah need them, and maybe a tiny bit of expanding around the viscount, just like 10feet or so

[Mammonist]

I agree that the roof/hut/fence exploit should be removed, but atm it's just  a fuckload of bots getting funneled through a small canal steamrolling everything in their path. I would be in favour of maps with multiple bot routes or even multiple bot spawning positions so that everyone gets to fight at the front rather than 3 tincans who just gobble up everything before everyone and their mother gets brutally overrun by a big glob of fuckyou.

[Falka]

dtv should no longer have any kind of roof, fence, barn or hut exploiting and the mentality of the majority of the dtv players is still "If i can exploit it, i will exploit it", thus the invisible walls.

If according to you the only way to prevent "exploiting" is putting everywhere invisible walls...  Meh, have no words. Btw, on most of new maps bots still stuck everywhere, letting players to slaughter them like before, just currently maps are ridiculously small.

Invisible walls are never a solution and shouldn't be considered as one. Stand up and fight against tyranny of invisible walls! 

for one time only i remember a totally open arena map

Yup, dat was great map, not too easy, funny to play, but ofc now we have fucking barriers everywhere.... sigh 

PS QQ 

[Fips]

If according to you the only way to prevent "exploiting" is putting everywhere invisible walls...  Meh, have no words. Btw, on most of new maps bots still stuck everywhere, letting players to slaughter them like before, just currently maps are ridiculously small.

Invisible walls are never a solution and shouldn't be considered as one. Stand up and fight against tyranny of invisible walls! 

Yup, dat was great map, not too easy, funny to play, but ofc now we have fucking barriers everywhere.... sigh 

Because if that map would be open people would just move to the walls or go in the dungeon and it would be the same shit we had before patch, just a different map? Now people are forced to make a shieldwall because otherwise even bandits will fuck the viscount up.

As i said, i will probably go for some more open maps that are not exploitable, but i need Shik to do some more work on the bots for that, because otherwise people will start crying that they can't win maps because they have too much freedom and people lure bots to the v and/or cav waves rape them or whatever 

I have seen plenty of good feedback on the server and people can make it to vitez or even sexies on almost every map, IF they work together. Not my fault or the fault of invisible walls if they don't.

[Lichen]

Who plays DTV anyway? Where is the fun slaughtering bots without having to do anything?

Grow some balls and play a proper gamemode 

I play a proper gamemode then get tired of all the bitchy players who cry because they think everything is 'BS' every time they lose. No matter what it is they WILL complain it is a certainty. So yeah bots actually have more balls than many players since they don't cry when they lose. dtv wins.

[Lichen]

I like the changes to dtv except some of the invisible walls are a bit annoying and limiting in movement but whatever. Would like to see a dtv map feature just a single house, barn etc up on a hill and a fairly large moat or wide river encircling it from a distance to slow the bots down for a bit. Or maybe a large shallow lake for them to cross first. Would add a new interesting play aspect to have them wade through water first.

[Jona]

Invisible walls were pretty much invented back when systems and PCs were too weak to have a large map. Even warband had invisible walls on the DTV maps before, but only on the border of the map so it didn't go on forever. Keeping that in mind, invisible walls should NEVER be used to keep players in check, and in all honesty, a player should never actually interact with an invisible wall. They are just there in case a player gets lost or tries to run away from the battle or what have you. An invisible wall on top of a fence, while still a cop-out, at least makes a LITTLE more sense, since the player will just assume that the fence can't be hopped, and move along.

Contrary to what you may believe, you nerfed the whole strategy thing in dtv. Sure, many maps were just pikers on a roof / in a hut stabbing away. Okay, I get that is exploiting, and it is honestly boring as all crap. I never partook in such events, always being a fan of the "glory charge." Take a map like istiniar for instance, one of, if not the, best exploit map. If you simply removed the hut, its a perfectly okay map. The archers can stand in their little barn in the hay, but what you seem to have forgotten is that bot aiming is more accurate that any human players'. Headshots happen 24-7. If you have a couple archers in the barn, maybe a piker or some other melee, they are far from invulnerable. Heck, they usually die first since they stand mostly still while us melee players are running all over the place.

Still think istiniar is too cheap with the barely-exploitable barn? fine... take that out. Now you have a fun map where archers kinda get shafted but melee is happy. But NO, you couldn't stop there... you instead made it a straight bowling alley, where we are the pins and the AI comes in like a bowling ball moshpit of death. And you say there is more strategy now? HAH! You can;t even go your separate ways to divide and conquer... the AI comes in one blob and stays in one blob the entire time. And now all you can do is S key... were A and D too OP you had to nerf those as well? FFS, DTV was fine with the lack of attention it had before... the buff to bots when they could block was greatly appreciated since it made it more challenging. Now the 'new challenge' update is total dumbassery to the point of borderline insanity.

So you say it encourages teamwork far more than before, right? THAT is the argument that you choose to go with, other than removing exploiting? Well let me tell you something, DTV is full of people who either want a break from all the tryhard modes (and bitching and shittalking that comes with the territory) or the occasional peasant who simply can't manage to kill anyone in pvp until they get their skills up. And DTV was great practice... taught how to block really well. Rarely would a clan join DTV to steamroll it, since no one who is a serious player in a serious clan would try to steamroll anything other than siege or battle (and the very rare rageball). So in other words, while many of us became friends from relaxing in DTV (no shittalking = nicer environment = friendlier people) there are many strangers, many not used to working as a team. And yet you want us to come with a full-sized shield wall, all sitting in the same TS dishing out orders left and right in order to win now? Not everyone is a shielder and no one is going to leave and come back on a shielder alt simply because DTV is lacking in shielders... you want to play the class you want to play, simple as that.

[Switchtense]

jona, i only rarely played on NA when it was istiniar, the few times i did the NA players exploited it not nearly as much as EU did

we had the little hut full of slashers, the barn full of slashers, the archers on all rooftops and the occasional full-shield-chinese-leecher in the cabbage hut or in a corner right next to the normal hut, stucking bots by the hut, the barn, all other houses and fences

that map was one big exploit basically

i like that all exploits are being removed, but like i said, i feel claustrophobic on these maps, open them up a little bit, especcialy around the viscount

[Falka]

Still think istiniar is too cheap with the barely-exploitable barn? fine... take that out. Now you have a fun map where archers kinda get shafted but melee is happy. But NO, you couldn't stop there... you instead made it a straight bowling alley, where we are the pins and the AI comes in like a bowling ball moshpit of death. And you say there is more strategy now? HAH! You can;t even go your separate ways to divide and conquer... the AI comes in one blob and stays in one blob the entire time. And now all you can do is S key... were A and D too OP you had to nerf those as well? FFS, DTV was fine with the lack of attention it had before... the buff to bots when they could block was greatly appreciated since it made it more challenging. Now the 'new challenge' update is total dumbassery to the point of borderline insanity.

This. Remove exploitable roofs, barns and so on if you have to, but don't put bloody barriers everywhere...

Because if that map would be open people would just move to the walls or go in the dungeon and it would be the same shit we had before patch, just a different map?

Then remove dungeons but let us have some open space, not this claustophobic crap 

I have seen plenty of good feedback on the server and people can make it to vitez or even sexies on almost every map, IF they work together. Not my fault or the fault of invisible walls if they don't.

Sure, new maps with a few good players, especially with shielders from china  , are as easily exploitable as old ones. But these narrow corridors are so boring... (Istiniar was boring too btw:P) On old maps with a small melee team we were able to make up to sexy wave, charging all the time, with new maps you can forget about charging cause there's no place for it.

And yet you want us to come with a full-sized shield wall, all sitting in the same TS dishing out orders left and right in order to win now? Not everyone is a shielder and no one is going to leave and come back on a shielder alt simply because DTV is lacking in shielders...

Not to mention playing as a shielder in a proper shieldwall means that you stay and do nothing... Shield up, press "T", press alt-tab, that's how good shielder "plays" in a shieldwall... Yup, that's exactly what I call "fun" 

[Patoson]

I like DTV with WSE2 very much, despite the fact that bots don't spam attacks anymore - in terms of attacking they suck right now, compared to before they could block in all directions.

The new maps are fine. Maybe one or two could be improved, but it's much better than the old system of Yaragar-Istiniar-Rizi-etc where people wouldn't play more than a round in a "difficult" map (not exploitable) but then spent hours in one of those "ezmode" maps that (at least in my case) made you lose skills the more you played like that.

By the way, the first or second day after EU_7 was updated, I saw a Rohirric Knight with a 1h blocking with his empty left hand. 

[Fips]

Have you read my posts at all, jona?
I said it twice already that there will be some more open maps coming with future patches, but not with the kinda bots we have right now. Sure, i could have gone with the more open approach right away, but just try to think objectively for a minute what people would complain about if i removed every exploitable spot from the usual maps and put them on the server. Hm? Can you guess it? Yes, exactly, they would complain about that what you and others are describing to me as the problem with the current maps. Simply because you need EVERYONE (One guy can drag half of the mobs right to the v) to teamwork to even get past nomads. No, i went for the way that allows a few organized players that can carry a whole team and even if in the weak waves a few people stand around being bored, they will always get their chance to fight because at some point people will die upfront and then it's their turn to shine.
I simply cannot satisfy everyone with the maps i am making and the latest state of dtv was horrendous, simply because there were only a few very dedicated people that stayed on the server when there were maps that didn't allow for exploitation like istiniar and yaragar. I am sure that at least 70% of the dtv players only really played it during the time that those exploitable maps were on the server (Including the time you would spent on it ;losing on purpose to tincans to keep the map; and how quickly other maps would have been forcefully changed by a playervote)

I don't think i've said anywhere that my highest priority was to get people to teamplay. The highest priority was to get rid of exploitable maps and thus, secondly, forcing people to teamplay. And don't try to turn my own words around my mouth because i said that any other maps than the famous exploitable ones need the teamplay of everyone. I am not going to judge the gamemode of what happened there, because from my experience the majority of players never played them on a regular basis or just quit the mode after one wave, because you couldn't exploit and thus not grind xp and gold.

And the invisible walls, i've already put some fences here and there when i see that they fit the map, but i am not gonna change every single map so you can see them. On the maps where they are not visible, the points of tactical interest are nowwhere near where they are and you will probably only face those invisible wall when you are lone suicide charger who then desperately needs to backpedal without dying, i don't want to encourage people who are doing that.

For example the new Istiniar. The Bots spawn so close to the village itself that once you are done with bandits you will be forced (If you want to succeed) to fall back to areas where there are walls that are visible, meaning into the village. Heck, on HRE DTV people even figured out that with vitez they need to fall back to give ranged longer time to shoot, so they formed up in the middle of the village where both ranged and melee had good positions to kill from.
So why should i put a visible fence (That needs to follow the invisible walls) in a round circle around those spots? The tactical disadvantage and the fact that sooner or later you will know by heart where to go or where there are them is not enough for me to destroy the look of the some of the maps. And either you haven't played all of the maps now, but in the current cycle there are only 3 (4 if you count the invisible walls on the desert mountains as well, although i really wouldn't, because you have a big mountain slope there) in there that have those kinda walls at all.

And the problem with shielders in a shieldwall: You can simply use your weapon as well and be one of the slasher if you don't wanna hold up. I know people would rather have pole and 2h to do that, but if you are in there as a slasher and you want to stay there, i'm sure people will understand. Also there are plenty of pure shield-skill builds out there that only have the purpose to do so, if you are not one of them, just do whatever you want? Even a simple meatwall of 2h/pole does the job.

Don't forget, those are not the final versions of the maps. Although there has been plenty of testing on the HRE server, it hasn't been done with the new bot-stats and i simply cannot judge the maps right away on the FIRST day of the patch. And you should do the same. Be happy that there are people who care about the gamemode at all and test the maps and the bots for some time instead of complaining after you played it for like an hour.

[Switchtense]

And the invisible walls, i've already put some fences here and there when i see that they fit the map, but i am not gonna change every single map so you can see them. On the maps where they are not visible, the points of tactical interest are nowwhere near where they are and you will probably only face those invisible wall when you are lone suicide charger who then desperately needs to backpedal without dying, i don't want to encourage people who are doing that.

For example the new Istiniar. The Bots spawn so close to the village itself that once you are done with bandits you will be forced (If you want to succeed) to fall back to areas where there are walls that are visible, meaning into the village. Heck, on HRE DTV people even figured out that with vitez they need to fall back to give ranged longer time to shoot, so they formed up in the middle of the village where both ranged and melee had good positions to kill from.
So why should i put a visible fence (That needs to follow the invisible walls) in a round circle around those spots? The tactical disadvantage and the fact that sooner or later you will know by heart where to go or where there are them is not enough for me to destroy the look of the some of the maps. And either you haven't played all of the maps now, but in the current cycle there are only 3 (4 if you count the invisible walls on the desert mountains as well, although i really wouldn't, because you have a big mountain slope there) in there that have those kinda walls at all.

tahts only partially true, often enough i (and some others) died because the shieldwall broke and bots leaked through cause the majority of the shieldwall guys were dead
i was then leading a small train of bots (i remember it on isti a few times) backpaddling towards and past the viscount to get stuck on an invisible wall and killed
at least twice we lost the round because of that (was last wave and only like 5-7 bots left)

if you expanded the area around the viscount a bit this would not happen, or if you put visible barriers there
i know there are walls but i never know exactly where they are

at least give us some space around the viscount on such close-quarter maps

[Sharpe]

Yeah but I cooperate with my team in order to exploit!

[Afina]

fence can be done in the form of flowers or shrubs,then it will be visible
http://www.ozelenenie.by/is_krasbar.jpg
you ask that, too, and in the winter flowers?
nope
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dkphoto/11990971/2538669/2538669_original.jpg

[Nightingale]

I think we get it Fips that you are trying to remove exploiting from DTV. That's fine and dandy and thank you for attempting to improve the game mode, but I'm strongly against making maps into tiny cells where the only viable option is shield walling... I'd be 100% fine with your just removing exploitable places without adding invisible barriers that restrict movement in and around the villages.

You say you will make more open maps ok... thanks I'll put my faith in that and hope your open maps won't the size of small prison cells. Please don't ruin the only game mode I can play with my horrible internet connection.