Author Topic: Triangle Shield  (Read 1858 times)

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Offline Johammeth

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2013, 09:32:05 pm »
0
I think I like it better than my +3 steel buckler.

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Offline JackieChan

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2014, 04:48:37 pm »
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bump, hopefully now this willl get looked at  :D
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Offline JackieChan

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2014, 05:35:36 pm »
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bump, can any of the current devs have a look?
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Offline Phew

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2014, 05:58:12 pm »
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The triangle shield is borderline OP as is. Since all shields were given armor bumps, the Triangle shield lost one of its only drawbacks (it used to be easy to penetrate with bolts). The weight is significantly lower than any shield with comparable durability. Compare it to the Heater Shield; it gains ~25% durability and 7 speed, and the only drawbacks are that it's 2-slot (a non-issue for dedicated builds) and non-heraldic.

If it was Heraldic, I think you'd see them everywhere. However, most shielders pick their shield based mostly on looks, since they all have the same melee coverage and last "long enough" against non-shieldbreaking weapons and they all break in a few swings from an axe.

Several other shields got "too good" after the armor buff as well (Hand Pavise and Board Shield primarily), so I expect they will be re-balanced sometime, along with the Triangle Shield.

Offline San

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2014, 06:30:49 pm »
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Problem with shields is that they simply get superior stats for every increase in difficulty level. Coverage, usable on horseback, round vs non-round, armour, hp, and speed are always changing for each shield, too. Because of that, it's difficult to say what shields are better.


I guess it makes sense to make triangle shield usable on horseback when looking at its weight, but then it would be good at pretty much everything, since it's pretty much a heavy norman shield with increased speed. This allows it to cross the boundaries between durability, speed, and coverage. It's barely balanced right now since all of the other 5 shield skill shields are highly specialized and able to overshadow it in certain areas.

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+3 knightly heater shield has ~1.4x more armour, but a +3 hand pavise has ~1.47x more hp and 0.5 more weight. I think it's tough to say which is better out of the two. Board shield also has less speed and armour than its neighbors, as well as +1 weight and the inability to be used on horseback. All that for roughly 100 more hp and better width coverage.

Offline Phew

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2014, 07:32:19 pm »
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+3 knightly heater shield has ~1.4x more armour, but a +3 hand pavise has ~1.47x more hp and 0.5 more weight. I think it's tough to say which is better out of the two. Board shield also has less speed and armour than its neighbors, as well as +1 weight and the inability to be used on horseback. All that for roughly 100 more hp and better width coverage.

I always just look at how many 7PS, 120 wpf hits from a 40cut weapon a given shield can survive, and in that context the hand pavise, board shield, and triangle significantly outshine other shields with the same width+speed. Now that almost every shield stops bolts, the only "special" attribute that you gain with >24 armor appears to be resistance to ballista penetration, a very niche attribute.

That being said, I'm not too concerned with shield internal stat balance, because the differences between shields are still mostly cosmetic (they all offer basically the same benefits and drawbacks). My gripes with shields are mostly related to their mechanics in-game and the shield skill itself. Specifically, lately I've been particularly annoyed by:
-Lateral coverage in melee, specifically against polearm sideswing animations. With even the slightest bit of server lag, polearm sideswings seem to routinely go right around shield blocks even when you are seemingly facing directly at the guy. Manual blocking appears to have roughly three times the lateral coverage against melee as shields.
-Crushthrough calculation doesn't seem to properly account for shield weight. Case in point, ~2-3kg weapons seem to block crushthrough attempts more frequently than 4-5 kg shields, which seems odd.
-The "forcefield" against projectiles is virtually nonexistent in the lateral plane, even with 7 shield skill. Shield width seems to be the only thing that matters when you are trying to block projectiles that are coming slightly from the side. Longitudinal forcefield (especially downward) is almost excessively good, but lateral forcefield is nearly nonexistent. This makes approaching two or more archers nearly impossible.
-The shield nudges all have severe deficiencies; the defensive nudge doesn't block projectiles during any part of the animation, so there is basically nothing you can do when approaching an archer/xbowman other than wait for them to get tired of holding their shot or let them kick you. The defensive nudge should block projectiles during the early part of the animation, so you could use it to interrupt a ranged enemy that is holding a shot on you. The neutral nudge has a bizarre hitbox, and it frequently whiffs when it clearly should have landed.

San, do you mind sharing the new shield skill mitigation formula? Is it 8% base and 6%/skill?

Offline San

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2014, 07:36:48 pm »
+1
10% + 6% * shield skill.

There are many aspects of shields that can't really be changed since it will break something in the game.

Offline Bulzur

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2014, 07:59:25 pm »
-1
The main reason you don't see it is because players have already a +3 shield, wich is better than the +0 version of the Triangle Shield.
And the fact that it's not heraldic.

Triangle shield is the fear of most archers, since it's not that heavy, for an awesome coverage and a really big health. Even in melee, you'll have trouble breaking it. Boredom will usually make you try to chamber, spam, and lead you to your death if wielded by an experienced shielder.

I see no problem at all with it being unusable on horseback, since it's so big it would suck up arrows aiming for the horse.


I do like how Jackie tries his best to change an item so he can personnally use it.

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Offline Phew

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2014, 08:00:16 pm »
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10% + 6% * shield skill.

There are many aspects of shields that can't really be changed since it will break something in the game.

Thanks. Although I remember the old forcefield (which was admittedly over-the-top), which was nerfed to the current state back when archers were a joke and Huscarl+Side Sword was the OP FOTM class. So the devs have demonstrated a willingness to mess with shield mechanics in the past.

Of the issues I mentioned, the lateral coverage against melee being too dependent on server performance is probably the most annoying, followed by the defensive nudge being an ineffective tool for interrupting ranged.

The other issues can be somewhat mitigated by just using a different shield (hate crushthrough? Steel Shield. Want more coverage against ranged? Use a Huscarl).

Quote
The main reason you don't see it is because players have already a +3 shield, wich is better than the +0 version of the Triangle Shield.
And the fact that it's not heraldic.

Yeah, I'd rock the hell out of the Triangle Shield if it was Heraldic. But those blue zigzags are so awful they even outweigh OP stats.

Offline MacLeod_

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2014, 03:22:20 am »
+1
The Triangle Shield looks bad ass you guys are just blind!
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2014, 03:32:02 am »
+1
The Triangle Shield looks bad ass you guys are just blind!


Hells yes, makes a perfect Byzantine shield!


I actually use it when I bother donning my heavy armor, I just use the knightly heater as it shows off my clan emblem better and I need something lightweight for my usual setup.
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Offline JackieChan

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2014, 12:37:17 am »
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The main reason you don't see it is because players have already a +3 shield, wich is better than the +0 version of the Triangle Shield.
And the fact that it's not heraldic.

Triangle shield is the fear of most archers, since it's not that heavy, for an awesome coverage and a really big health. Even in melee, you'll have trouble breaking it. Boredom will usually make you try to chamber, spam, and lead you to your death if wielded by an experienced shielder.

I see no problem at all with it being unusable on horseback, since it's so big it would suck up arrows aiming for the horse.


I do like how Jackie tries his best to change an item so he can personnally use it.

"It's for the good of the mod ! No one uses it anyway."
Actually, according to the website, the heavy norman shield got more height and Width than the triangle shield, but its still usable on horse back and 1 slot.
Yes you are right, i want to personally use it on horse back, because thats one of the ways it was meant to be used. Most of the time im trying to RP  Byzantine theme but the shield has always been a problem as there wasent any Byzantine shields. I was happy they added one but  they made it unusable on horse back and i think its rather stupid.
Quote
I do like how Jackie tries his best to change an item so he can personnally use it.
How you said this made it look like i want both the shield to be buffed and usable on horse back. But if you had read my post more clearly i said that the shield should be nerfed if it could be usable on horse back.

As i said previously, it would be nice to have a dev feeback. Thanks
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Offline San

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2014, 01:29:56 am »
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Not a dev, but I'm probably your best bet for now, dude. To have it usable by horseback, it'll have to get nerfed in durability.

Offline Kamirane

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2014, 01:39:11 am »
+2
maybe just adding a similar shield that just can be used on horseback with slightly nerfed stats? Horsemen´s Triangle Shield? So the actual Shield doesnt get nerfed for those who still want to use it just on feet only.

Offline JackieChan

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Re: Triangle Shield
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2014, 03:14:46 am »
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maybe just adding a similar shield that just can be used on horseback with slightly nerfed stats? Horsemen´s Triangle Shield? So the actual Shield doesnt get nerfed for those who still want to use it just on feet only.
thats a good idea
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