Author Topic: Moral epistemology and moral ontology  (Read 3757 times)

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Offline Xant

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2013, 12:13:44 pm »
-1
Meaning lies as much
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Offline rufio

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2013, 12:49:05 pm »
+1
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Offline Butan

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2013, 01:40:11 pm »
0
I believe that morality is indeed only a social custom.
Ultimately, we have evolved to a point where we can do whatever the fuck we want, we know it, but as long as we live together there is a social cost for your actions.


The only thing that really matter, is how much you are ready to pay.

Offline Xant

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2013, 02:09:59 pm »
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I don't suppose you feel very strongly about Hitler's actions then. He lost, so he died. But if he had won, what he did would have been cool.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2013, 02:17:33 pm »
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Not really. Probably would've been the same thing as with Stalin - all his murderous rampages were "cool", till he died. Then he was a monster and buried and forgotten like a bad dream.

Offline Xant

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2013, 02:18:59 pm »
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Why do you think so, if morality is not objective? Had he lived long enough and if morals are nothing but social conventions, then he could have changed the public opinion and genocide would've become a good thing to do.
Meaning lies as much
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as in the Haiku.

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2013, 02:24:20 pm »
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Read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_cult_of_personality#Illusion_of_unanimous_support
and then
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_cult_of_personality#End_of_the_cult_and_de-Stalinization

Stalin's cult also stands for support for the terrible crimes he committed.

De-Stalinization was a pretty big, at least a 90 degree turn, which pretty much put a stop to mass murders in Soviet Union, though, rather than calling them immoral, they simply chose to cover it up and pretend those didn't happen.

Offline Butan

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2013, 03:13:16 pm »
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I don't suppose you feel very strongly about Hitler's actions then. He lost, so he died. But if he had won, what he did would have been cool.

What I feel is part of the society reaction to what Hitler did.

Individually or collectively, moralism is not an objective thing since it changes all the time.
Thus there could be indeed a time when bad will be good and good will be bad.

Offline Huscarlton_Banks

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2013, 03:17:07 pm »
0
video

You seem to forget that acts considered atrocities today were okay in antiquity (and indeed, some are still are okay in countries that practice religious law), so this "objective morality" that you prescribe is no better than the idea that altruism is selfish, since it is nothing but blindly following a deity/traditions that conveniently change their minds rapidly depending on who is in power.

You can claim it is superior just because a deity(according to books/religious groups) claims that is is the absolute truth/law, but you don't have to look very hard to see that religious law/interpretations change often, and you don't have to look very hard to find religious directives to perform genocide/slavery/force marriage, or even stories in which the god(s) themselves perform acts that are considered wrong, but it's okay because it's against people who conveniently happen to be the enemy of the nation that practices the religion.

Example:

(click to show/hide)

But... New covenant right?

Obvious handwaving in supposedly "absolute" morality to keep up with the times.

Offline _schizo321437

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2013, 03:42:01 pm »
+1
I get the feeling people start with absolute principles and build out from there. All of us.

EDIT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventromedial_prefrontal_cortex

"People with damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex still retain the ability to consciously make moral judgments without error, but only in hypothetical situations presented to them. There is a gap in reasoning when applying the same moral principles to similar situations in their own lives. The result is that people make decisions that are inconsistent with their self professed moral values."

Sounds like normal politikking TBH.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 11:04:34 pm by _schizo321437 »
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Offline Kalam

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2013, 12:44:08 am »
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Not really. Probably would've been the same thing as with Stalin - all his murderous rampages were "cool", till he died. Then he was a monster and buried and forgotten like a bad dream.

Everything except the concentration camps, yeah. It's one thing if he used them as manual labor or for experimentation, it's another to just execute them when they could still be used in the war effort.

@Huscarlton: some of the many things about religion that turned me off the moment I could understand them. It's still beyond me how people can follow old ass religions. I'd understand it more if it was something new that was designed to fit with the current culture.

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2013, 09:07:15 am »
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Everything except the concentration camps, yeah. It's one thing if he used them as manual labor or for experimentation, it's another to just execute them when they could still be used in the war effort.
I didn't quite get this post...?

Soviet Gulags still existed after Stalin, but, AFAIK, there were less atrocities committed in Syberia after that, as well as no more mass deportations.

Offline Xant

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2013, 03:51:35 pm »
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Platinga, more like ba-zinga.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 01:20:55 pm by Xant »
Meaning lies as much
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as in the Haiku.

Offline _schizo321437

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2013, 04:59:34 pm »
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Vanilla ice cream exalts strawberry ice cream. Proving my pet cat exists.

Unless they melt.
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Offline Siiem

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Re: Moral epistemology and moral ontology
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2013, 07:15:59 pm »
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Unless they melt.

What happens if the ice cream melts?