Increase shield force field

[Kafein]

Talking about stupid ideas: how about a feature that allows a sizeable infantry mop to intimidate ranged within a 50m cone? Inf can trigger(with a cooldown) a point and shout(banging weapon against shield for shielders) anim and if enough are doing it at the same time while being close to each other; all enemy ranged within the cone will be affected, make a shit their pants anim and lose all wpf for some time.

Well, we need a proper archery/xbow counter class, otherwise the ranged population will continue its positive feedback cycle.

[CrazyCracka420]

Well, we need a proper archery/xbow counter class, otherwise the ranged population will continue its positive feedback cycle.

Cavalry, shielders, other archers/xbow, throwers, melee in overwhelming numbers (or melee with other classes assisting).

[Ronin]

Cavalry, shielders, other archers/xbow, throwers, melee in overwhelming numbers (or melee with other classes assisting).

+ Fast moving infantry

[Kafein]

Cavalry, shielders

Neither acheive the goal of killing outnumbering ranged, and cav is better countered by range than range is countered by cav.

, other archers/xbow

Which is exactly my point. Positive feedback means more ranged will cause more ranged.

, throwers

Yeah, not really. Throwers are either too slow or too weak and remain extremely vulnerable to crossfire while throwing. The only advantage they have over melee is to be able to damage archers from slightly further away which can be just enough in some cases where melee would not be able to do jack shit (roofcamping for example). Any head-on approach will be very inefficient due to constant dodging between the two parties.

, melee in overwhelming numbers (or melee with other classes assisting).

Anything in overwhelming numbers is always going to beat anything. That isn't what a counter is.


A counter is when you are fewer than the enemy yet the combination of your class and their class makes killing them much easier, like ranged against shieldless infantry. What a counter is not is for example being able to resist the attacks of a given class (shielders don't counter ranged, they resist it).

+ Fast moving infantry

That's honestly the closest we have to a ranged counter. But it only works against one ranged at a time given absolutely perfect conditions (flat terrain being the most unlikely one). And even when you do get to an archer or xbow alive this way, chances are you are going to spend a couple of seconds fighting them which is plenty enough time for you to get shot down, run down, backstabbed or anything else. And no, bringing other people isn't unfair at all because due to the nature of ranged you always have to go deep into enemy controlled zones in order to kill them unless if your side already won.

[Molly]

Kafein is right, there is no proper counter.

Not even the fast moving infantry. I stopped counting the times I ran into range to hit an archer just to get headshot with a hold arrow and a reticule probably as big as a truck.

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

You have a point Molly. Shotgunning with Archers is really easy. Problem is, you remove that, they stack Athletics and run away, it's a tough situation.

In regards to force fields, I've been playing archer for around 10m xp so far and I have never once hit through a player's shield. I've hit players in the back around the shield, above it if I'm on an upper level and the shielder isn't looking at me, none of these looked off.

I will say however I find it nearly impossible to run out of arrows, I use 2 stacks of +3 bodkins which is 40 arrows and finding ammo is not difficult at all. This is a bad thing because it means archers don't need to worry about their shots, if they miss it doesn't matter. This is also why the lighter bows seem to be very effective. More shots = more chance to hit whereas long bow users have to aim a bit better but don't actually get much of an improvement for the higher skill level. (Except Steevee who hits like a fucking tank)

I think the best thing to do is to reduce ammo for ranged. As has been said there's plenty of ammo on the floor and walls but collecting this can often be risky which is a good thing. Lack of ammo = less kiting for archers because the arrows will be amongst the melee where they don't want to go. It also means people will be less inclined to try these shield shots because each shot is more valuable.

It will also finally nerf horse archers somewhat because they just shoot forever.

Oh I forgot to mention. Each stack of arrows should be classified as it's own weapon so being able to switch between different types of ammo. This would mean you wouldn't need to fish through the sea of used arrows to find a specific type, would also be nice to get rid of that stupid pick up ammo, drop melee weapon thing. I'd also like to see infantry being able to pick up and drop arrows for their archers. Would promote teamwork and they obviously can't use them so I don't see a problem there. It's easy for infantry to do it for crossbows in strat battles so why not archers?

[Templar_Steevee]

I think the best thing to do is to reduce ammo for ranged.

That may be a good solution. Reverting ammounts of ammo from before patch can be good.

Also idea with bringing arrows by your teammates is good

[San]

That's honestly the closest we have to a ranged counter. But it only works against one ranged at a time given absolutely perfect conditions (flat terrain being the most unlikely one). And even when you do get to an archer or xbow alive this way, chances are you are going to spend a couple of seconds fighting them which is plenty enough time for you to get shot down, run down, backstabbed or anything else. And no, bringing other people isn't unfair at all because due to the nature of ranged you always have to go deep into enemy controlled zones in order to kill them unless if your side already won.

Tried to suggest a few crazy ideas like shield skill reducing shield weight, additional run tier when holding block (since blocking when moving is so damn slow, barely faster than backpedaling, even with a lot of athletics), etc. so ranged wouldn't need a nerf and make it more fun for those classes without making them overpowered against other classes. Won't make a single shielder too good against ranged since every time a shielder lets go of his block to attack, he's vulnerable at almost any angle to other ranged attacks. The plan is to help a small group of shielders approach and keep up with ranged once they scatter.

[MURDERTRON]

Buff Heavy Lance.

[Admiral Ballsack]

Don't think the force fields need a change, but xbows being able to shoot through through my shield, not even breaking it. Not sure if that is even an intended mechanic but how does a bolt go straight through a shield? I'm not talking about foot shots or whatever, I'm talking about when someone shoots a bolt straight at my shield and it goes through it. What even counters xbows honestly?

They get 12 shots +1 (i think) 12 of those shots have a chance of one hitting most people if they hit depending on the persons build (granted a 24+ str build probably wont get 1 hit with full armor). So that's over 9 kills a round granted if you are decent shot; it isnt like the bolt curves in random directions like archery. Then Arbs are 2 slot so you can hold another weapon, say a one hand and fight in melee quite decently since you only need 15 str for an arb you have hella agi for footwork and wpf points.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

Don't think the force fields need a change, but xbows being able to shoot through through my shield, not even breaking it. Not sure if that is even an intended mechanic but how does a bolt go straight through a shield? I'm not talking about foot shots or whatever, I'm talking about when someone shoots a bolt straight at my shield and it goes through it. What even counters xbows honestly?

They get 12 shots +1 (i think) 12 of those shots have a chance of one hitting most people if they hit depending on the persons build (granted a 24+ str build probably wont get 1 hit with full armor). So that's over 9 kills a round granted if you are decent shot; it isnt like the bolt curves in random directions like archery. Then Arbs are 2 slot so you can hold another weapon, say a one hand and fight in melee quite decently since you only need 15 str for an arb you have hella agi for footwork and wpf points.

Get a shield with higher armor or high damage bolts will penetrate them.

#missiles with damage > shield_penetration_offset + shield_penetration_factor * shield(armor)
#will penetrate.

shield_penetration_offset = 30.0
shield_penetration_factor = 3.0

[Sandersson Jankins]

Don't think the force fields need a change, but xbows being able to shoot through through my shield, not even breaking it. Not sure if that is even an intended mechanic but how does a bolt go straight through a shield? I'm not talking about foot shots or whatever, I'm talking about when someone shoots a bolt straight at my shield and it goes through it. What even counters xbows honestly?

They get 12 shots +1 (i think) 12 of those shots have a chance of one hitting most people if they hit depending on the persons build (granted a 24+ str build probably wont get 1 hit with full armor). So that's over 9 kills a round granted if you are decent shot; it isnt like the bolt curves in random directions like archery. Then Arbs are 2 slot so you can hold another weapon, say a one hand and fight in melee quite decently since you only need 15 str for an arb you have hella agi for footwork and wpf points.

Other arbalests.

Nah, but really mano y mano I can't think of something that can easily or efficiently counter a good arbalest player. Did 3-4 gens of it and it was the easiest time I ever had. It's difficult to get valour as an arbalest or heavy xbow player, but not impossible. Still, it was never as easy to take an amazing player out of the game without retaliation. Shooting through shields didn't need any special technique as an arb player either, just point n' click.

Multiple cavalry players can take an arbalest player out of the game efficiently at times, but if the terrain is unforgiving, it probably ain't gonna happen. Those nice neck-high stone ruins that they can jump on usually make it so cavalry aren't going to be able to get 'em, not to mention a god teamplayer worth his neckbeard will protect the arbalests especially at the start of the round.

I can't think of a way to make crossbows, mostly arbalests or heavy crossbows less infuriating for other players. They're not ridiculously unbalanced or overpowered, but they are probably the most maddening thing to get killed by. 6 cav coming at you? You can probably dodge them all if you're a good player, and your teammates can help you. Multiple melee coming at you? You could block them all or refrain from getting in that situation as a good player. As infantry, if a good arbalest player gets his sights on you, you're rather dicked. God forbid you're a cavalry player trying to eliminate them for your team. A good arbalest guy can just blast you for most or all of your health as you're about to hit them.

[Admiral Ballsack]

Get a shield with higher armor or high damage bolts will penetrate them.

Using an Elite Cav Shield with one of the 'higher' armors. If everyone where to use the steel shields what would be the point of having other shields?? The whole point of a shield is to counter RANGED if 96% of the shields are useless against one type of ranged they might as all be useless imo.

Coming from an arb player for 1 gen and tried multiple other times I one hit most cav with my bolts and i could block with my weapon. See a guy who's better at melee than you? Run away and reload to shoot him!
I think arbs + heavy should be 3 slots, you can still use a 0 slot 1hand 12 bolts are MORE than enough for one round on battle that's for sure. Also think they should up the weight of bolts or xbows since you can just avoid combat and reload you can pick and choose who you fight.