Author Topic: does the means justify the end?  (Read 3226 times)

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Offline Bjord

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2013, 07:08:38 pm »
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"ends" and "means" are human-defined concepts that do not exist in the physical world. Now that I think of it, "justify" doesn't exist either, as it implies ethics.

If you established that thoughts in the brain are neurons firing off, transmitting electrical signals in specific patterns, and if you could establish certain patterns to be chains of thought, would those patterns exist if you could identify them? If so, then concepts would indeed exist.
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Offline Teeth

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2013, 07:23:06 pm »
+2
"ends" and "means" are human-defined concepts that do not exist in the physical world. Now that I think of it, "justify" doesn't exist either, as it implies ethics.
Your point being?

The way I see it ends, means and justification are words to which each of us apply similar and strongly defined concepts, which means that regardless of them being human constructs, we can discuss the relation between them. Your argument is stupid and senseless as it precludes the discussion of anything that is not directly tangible, while human beings clearly value discussion of non tangible things and have done so for thousands of years.

Offline Xant

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2013, 08:03:35 pm »
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If you established that thoughts in the brain are neurons firing off, transmitting electrical signals in specific patterns, and if you could establish certain patterns to be chains of thought, would those patterns exist if you could identify them? If so, then concepts would indeed exist.

woooahhh bjord there you go talkin' all edumacated-like
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Offline Bjord

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2013, 09:18:31 pm »
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woooahhh bjord there you go talkin' all edumacated-like

To refute in a fashion most preferred by Xant: Argumentum ad Hominem.
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Offline Dooz

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2013, 09:23:25 pm »
+6
in the end we're all pretty mean
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Offline Bjord

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2013, 09:25:36 pm »
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gud 1 d00z
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Offline Tibe

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2013, 09:38:26 pm »
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There is no "end".

Offline Kafein

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2013, 12:13:48 am »
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If you established that thoughts in the brain are neurons firing off, transmitting electrical signals in specific patterns, and if you could establish certain patterns to be chains of thought, would those patterns exist if you could identify them? If so, then concepts would indeed exist.

The patterns themselves vary from brain to brain and additionally every concept exists. This doesn't mean that every concept is true. And by true I really want to say applicable to nature.

Your point being?

The way I see it ends, means and justification are words to which each of us apply similar and strongly defined concepts, which means that regardless of them being human constructs, we can discuss the relation between them.

We think about very similar things when we use words like "ends" and "means", but we can't quite define them exactly in physical terms either, simply because that is not possible.

Your argument is stupid and senseless as it precludes the discussion of anything that is not directly tangible, while human beings clearly value discussion of non tangible things and have done so for thousands of years.

Those discussions that humans value, are they valuable ? We don't care. My argument does not preclude the discussion of anything that is not directly tangible. I'm only in the mood of pointing out that this debate cannot end conclusively. Which also means that if we discussed tangible things we could theoritically be able to do just that, even though we don't really value it.

To start such discussions automatically leads to "now bring it to eleven" arguments that push our definitions of the concepts to their limits. At some point we realise we are like blind people trying to reason why blue is more aesthetically appealing than red, and quickly forget about the subject.

Offline Xant

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2013, 01:04:09 am »
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To refute in a fashion most preferred by Xant: Argumentum ad Hominem.

--------------------------------------------------------
Ad hominem fallacy quick chart
--------------------------------------------------------
NOT AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong
- You're stupid
- You're stupid because you're wrong
--------------------------------------------------------
AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong because you're stupid
--------------------------------------------------------
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Rumblood

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2013, 01:43:03 am »
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To refute in a fashion most preferred by Xant: Argumentum ad Hominem.

I think that you were looking for ad Infinitum.  :idea:
"I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday" – Abraham Lincoln

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Offline Bjord

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2013, 01:45:29 am »
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I think that you were looking for ad Infinitum.  :idea:

Touché, and a one tip of the hat to you, sir.
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Offline Xant

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2013, 02:02:52 am »
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I think that you were looking for ad Infinitum.  :idea:

Enlighten us, how is this...

woooahhh bjord there you go talkin' all edumacated-like

Ad infinitum?

People using terms they don't know is so cute.
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as in the Haiku.

Offline Bjord

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2013, 02:05:59 am »
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:lol:

Xant, so clueless.
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Offline Xant

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2013, 02:06:34 am »
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Bjord, don't make me break out the chatlogs.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Bjord

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Re: does the means justify the end?
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2013, 02:07:39 am »
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Don't you feel weak for having to resort to such things? :(
When you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back.